[ADWD Spoilers] Jon (ending)

[Steel_Wind]

What three ways? As far as I can tell Jon is dead. D-E-D Dead.

Dead? Perma dead. no save? Really??

Do we need to review the first time we see actual magic in the entire series?

You will recall it, I'm sure. "Only death can pay for life?" Mirri Maz Dur? From dead Khal to perfectly hale whole and hearty Khal? Well... except for that brain damage/no soul thing, that is.

Seriously. The first magic spell we see in ASoIaF is "Raise Dead". And we happen to have a prophet, shadow binder and accomplished blood maegi 100 feet away from the event of Jon's death who is, it seems well motivated to raise him fomr the dead. Moreover, to paraphrase Cypher from The Matrix: "How can he be [Azor Ahai] if he's dead!?"

Obviously, he can't be. But that as we know he IS, in fact, Azor Ahai, we know he isn't D-E-D.

My prediction: Melisandre uses MMD's spell on Jon to raise his cold corpse fomr the dead and heal all of its wounds, initially planning on using Mance's son as the sacrifice. "King's Blood." This can go one of two ways:

Option 1:

1) Val to Melony: "That isn't Mance's son, Jon switched him. No King's Blood here!"

Melony to Val: "Lord Snow, what a fool you are! I was never your enemy; that is the Other. Now you will pay a greater price for this than you ever wished for. Bring me Lord Snow's sword...

Option 2:

2) Val to Melony: that isn't Mance's son, Jon switched him. No King's Blood here!"

Melony to Val: "Did you think I am so blind as that? I foresaw Lord Snow's meddling in my flames long ago. Just as with the father, I had glmored the babes long ago, so thoroughly that not even the mother could tell. The "monster" truly is Mance's son; not Gilly's.

I am inclined to think it is the first path; Jon unknowingly screws himself by sending Mance's son and Aemon to the South. And so he pays the price for it.

Whats Mel's Raise dead backup plan? Which death pays for Jon's life if King's blood is not available? Ghost's life, of course. He was called "Ghost" from the start for a reason. Jon's ghost goes to dwell in the White Wolf, and the loss of the White wolf is the price Jon pays for his life.

To top it all off and make sure the prophecy comes true, Ghost is probably sacrificed by shoving a certain wolf's head pomelled sword through the heart of the beast that Jon loves (and currently, is). AA is thereby reborn and made a man again; Lightbringer is reforged, bathed in the blood of Ghost's heart -- Jon lives, but Ghost dies.

You have to admit, this bittersweet resurrection is just the sort of "death paying for life" that GRRM would like to inflict upon us. Nothing comes for free in Westeros.

The other alternatives?

A) Alternative A: It's a BAD DAY to be a Karstark in a cell on the Wall. On the bright side, at least Hell is probably warmer than Karstark's cell beneath the tower.

B) Alternative B: The biggest Stretch? Sorry Shirene. Life has not been kind to you, has it? Given Stannis' general vengeful nature, I don't see this one happening.

To avoid the Mary Suism and to underline the scarifice and signify that this is a new stage of Jon's life. I think that the loss of Ghost would be a FAR better sacrifice -- and the sacrifice would also be felt by Bran, Arya, and Rickon, too. That means that coupled with the "news" of the death of the Stark Bastard on the Wall, his siblings would know Ghost is dead and so be certain that Jon is. This could work some great mischief before the end. So that's my current bet.

Still, whatever the case, there is no way that Jon is permanently dead. GRRM killed Ned, and he killed Robb so that we would be upset about this, but not completely. The difference with Ned's and Robb's deaths was that they weren't the main character of this story.

Jon Snow, otoh, is. AA isn't going to die; he is going to be reborn. That's the prophecy. We've always known it, now we just need to figure see how it happens.

[TrackerNeil]

Regarding the proposed rescue of the wildlings stranded at Hardhome, I keep returning to my analogy of Dunkirk in WWII. Plus, you don't think the wildlings would be grateful to the only man who respects them and braves ice zombies to save them from certain (un)death? The wildlings are not without honor, especially to those who spare their lives, as Osha proves. So far as Jon's concerned, the wildlings have proven more trustworthy and loyal brothers in arms than his sworn brothers in the Night's Watch.

As I recall, the French the Brits rescued from Dunkirk were known allies, and not recent enemies who were fresh off a siege of London. ;) And the wildlings' sense of honor doesn't mean they'll integrate very well into the North, nor that northern lords will want them anywhere near settled lands.

That being said, Jon's plan to bring the wildlings into the fold had merit, if properly conducted. His dealings with Tormund were in my view fairly prudent, but that talk of Hardhome was just a step too far. Dunkirk was twenty miles from the English coast; Hardhome was hundreds of miles away, and besieged by undead. I doubt Jon would ever have arrived, much less brought back any wildlings or even his own men.

[Ygritte]

Whats Mel's Raise dead backup plan? Which death pays for Jon's life if King's blood is not available? Ghost's life, of course. He was called "Ghost" from the start for a reason. Jon's ghost goes to dwell in the White Wolf, and the loss of the White wolf is the price Jon pays for his life.

To top it all off and make sure the prophecy comes true, Ghost is probably sacrificed by shoving a certain wolf's head pomelled sword through the heart of the beast that Jon loves (and currently, is). AA is thereby reborn and made a man again; Lightbringer is reforged, bathed in the blood of Ghost's heart -- Jon lives, but Ghost dies.

You have to admit, this bittersweet resurrection is just the sort of "death paying for life" that GRRM would like to inflict upon us. Nothing comes for free in Westeros.

I've been thinking that Ghost is the payment too. :crying: :crying: :crying: I will hate to see it, but I think that's what GRRM plans. Why else say your warged beast becomes "closer than a wife"? Ghost is Nissa Nissa.

[jurble]

Dead? Perma dead. no save? Really??

Do we need to review the first time we see actual magic in the entire series?

You will recall it, I'm sure. "Only death can pay for life?" Mirri Maz Dur? From dead Khal to perfectly hale whole and hearty Khal? Well... except for that brain damage/no soul thing, that is.

Seriously. The first magic spell we see in ASoIaF is "Raise Dead". And we happen to have a prophet, shadow binder and accomplished blood maegi 100 feet away from the event of Jon's death who is, it seems well motivated to raise him fomr the dead. Moreover, to paraphrase Cypher from The Matrix: "How can he be [Azor Ahai] if he's dead!?"

Obviously, he can't be. But that as we know he IS, in fact, Azor Ahai, we know he isn't D-E-D.

My prediction: Melisandre uses MMD's spell on Jon to raise his cold corpse fomr the dead and heal all of its wounds, initially planning on using Mance's son as the sacrifice. "King's Blood." This can go one of two ways:

I am inclined to think it is the first path; Jon unknowingly screws himself by sending Mance's son and Aemon to the South. And so he pays the price for it.

Whats Mel's Raise dead backup plan? Which death pays for Jon's life if King's blood is not available? Ghost's life, of course. He was called "Ghost" from the start for a reason. Jon's ghost goes to dwell in the White Wolf, and the loss of the White wolf is the price Jon pays for his life.

To top it all off and make sure the prophecy comes true, Ghost is probably sacrificed by shoving a certain wolf's head pomelled sword through the heart of the beast that Jon loves (and currently, is). AA is thereby reborn and made a man again; Lightbringer is reforged, bathed in the blood of Ghost's heart -- Jon lives, but Ghost dies.

You have to admit, this bittersweet resurrection is just the sort of "death paying for life" that GRRM would like to inflict upon us. Nothing comes for free in Westeros.

The other alternatives?

A) Alternative A: It's a BAD DAY to be a Karstark in a cell on the Wall. On the bright side, at least Hell is probably warmer than Karstark's cell beneath the tower.

B) Alternative B: The biggest Stretch? Sorry Shirene. Life has not been kind to you, has it? Given Stannis' general vengeful nature, I don't see this one happening.

To avoid the Mary Suism and to underline the scarifice and signify that this is a new stage of Jon's life. I think that the loss of Ghost would be a FAR better sacrifice -- and the sacrifice would also be felt by Bran, Arya, and Rickon, too. That means that coupled with the "news" of the death of the Stark Bastard on the Wall, his siblings would know Ghost is dead and so be certain that Jon is. This could work some great mischief before the end. So that's my current bet.

Still, whatever the case, there is no way that Jon is permanently dead. GRRM killed Ned, and he killed Robb so that we would be upset about this, but not completely. The difference with Ned's and Robb's deaths was that they weren't the main character of this story.

Jon Snow, otoh, is. AA isn't going to die; he is going to be reborn. That's the prophecy. We've always known it, now we just need to figure see how it happens.

Oh shit, stabbing Ghost to make a fire-sword (and rezzing Jon) would be AWESOME.

[tozka]

LOL! Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe Jon has numerous conversations with Bowen Marsh on the matter of incorporating wildlings into the NW. Does Jon simply not make his argument clear in these discussions? Or maybe he acts too dismissive of Marsh's concerns? I'm sort of under the impression Jon tries as best he can to separate the wildlings and NW in the interest of avoiding conflict between the two groups. Though this has the unintentional side effect of making the alliance utterly dependent on Jon, specifically, being Lord Commander.

He does have a couple of conversation in which he tried to explain that the Others are the much bigger and important threat they need to concentrate. This one is my favourite:

“I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on

the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes

the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you

took your vows?”

“They were. As the lord commander knows.”

“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how

we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon

waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words.

So tell me, my lord— what are these wildlings, if not men?”

Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.

I think Marsh is too set against the wildlings, on principle and no matter how rational allying with them may be. An understandable attitude given the NW's decades of bitter guerrilla warfare against the wildlings but, in the end, extremely shortsighted. For one, does Marsh not expect the wildlings to avenge Jon's death at his hands? With hundreds of wildlings at Castle Black, possibly now armed with steel weapons, what does Marsh think will happen to the NW after he kills the only man the wildlings respect? Then there's the fact that dead wildlings beyond the Wall means a larger army of wights for the Others to attack the Wall with. Marsh's hatred of the wildlings has blinded him to his primary duty, the defense of the Wall, IMO. So, while I can sympathize with the emotions apparently behind Marsh's betrayal of Jon, I can't entirely view Marsh's actions as anything other than suicidal stupidity.

I don't think Marsh and his company of conspirators killed Jon because of the wildlings. Yes, they disapproved vehemently but they reconciled themselves to the will of the Lord Commander, little as they like it or they would have acted before the wildlings were allowed through the Wall.

I think they panicked after hearing Ramsay's letter and decided to take off Jon so that they can appease Ramsay Bolton. At least that's what seems most logical to me.

[Ygritte]

Oh shit, stabbing Ghost to make a fire-sword (and rezzing Jon) would be AWESOME.

I'm going to miss that wolf though. :crying: But yeah, it's the perfect way to do it story-wise. And I think some of Ghost's mind will remain with Jon afterward; they'll always be a bit mingled.

I started thinking this the other day but it made me too sad to fully type it out, lol. Which means, given GRRM, that we're probably onto something.

[RedHairedWight]

Just to add more fuel to the what-will-happen-to-stabbed-Jon debate, let's not forget that Ghost wasn't even there. Mel did WARN Jon to keep his direwolf close, but to quote the book:

"Ghost would have followed as well, but as the wolf came padding after them, Jon grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and wrestled him back inside. Borroq might be amongst those gathering at the Shieldhall. The last thing he needed just now was his wolf savaging the skinchanger's boar."

So even though Jon's last spoken word was, "Ghost," the direwolf was locked up at the time he "died." (I put "died" in quotes just for the sake of those who are still hoping that Jon's wounds aren't fatal . . . although I'm pretty sure they are).

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Yup, I think you guys are right, Ghost will be the sacrifice, but part of him will live on in the resurrected Jon, making Jon a bit feral at times.

[RedHairedWight]

I've been thinking that Ghost is the payment too. :crying: :crying: :crying: I will hate to see it, but I think that's what GRRM plans. Why else say your warged beast becomes "closer than a wife"? Ghost is Nissa Nissa.

Sad, but possible.

[Ygritte]

Just to add more fuel to the what-will-happen-to-stabbed-Jon debate, let's not forget that Ghost wasn't even there. Mel did WARN Jon to keep his direwolf close, but to quote the book:

"Ghost would have followed as well, but as the wolf came padding after them, Jon grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and wrestled him back inside. Borroq might be amongst those gathering at the Shieldhall. The last thing he needed just now was his wolf savaging the skinchanger's boar."

So even though Jon's last spoken word was, "Ghost," the direwolf was locked up at the time he "died." (I put "died" in quotes just for the sake of those who are still hoping that Jon's wounds aren't fatal . . . although I'm pretty sure they are).

True. He may have still been close enough to get the job done, though.

Edited to add: Ghost being slightly farther away may end up working in Jon's favor. This way, Melisandre may have more time to get to him. If he'd been out there with Jon, the conspirators may have killed him too. In fact. they almost certainly would have, because Ghost would have had himself a steward snack otherwise.

[RedHairedWight]

Anyone else notice the parallels with Robb at the Red Wedding? You know, the whole Stark leader making lots of enemies out of allies, his direwolf acting all snappish all of a sudden, said direwolf getting locked up, and then, "Et tu, Brute?"

[RedHairedWight]

True. He may have still been close enough to get the job done, though.

Edited to add: Ghost being slightly farther away may end up working in Jon's favor. This way, Melisandre may have more time to get to him. If he'd been out there with Jon, the conspirators may have killed him too. In fact. they almost certainly would have, because Ghost would have had himself a steward snack otherwise.

This is true.

Or,

It is known.

[Ygritte]

This is true.

Or,

It is known.

Yeah, I'm wondering if maybe this is authorial tweaking. Maybe he tried to write the scene with Ghost close at hand, but realized Ghost wouldn't stand by and let Jon die without defending him--either Ghost would die defending Jon or else the stewards would be killed before they could do their dirty work. Hence Ghost being inside instead.

Though yeah, definitely parallels with Robb.

[The Sunspear]

And don't forget that Varamyr was able to claw his way into One-Eye's skin as he was dying without the wolf being in his line-of-sight. I think as long as the bond is there, distance between animal and warg ceases to be a factor. All that matters is Jon having enough time to make the switch, and I think his instincts could do that for him.

[Ygritte]

And don't forget that Varamyr was able to claw his way into One-Eye's skin as he was dying without the wolf being in his line-of-sight. I think as long as the bond is there, distance between animal and warg ceases to be a factor. All that matters is Jon having enough time to make the switch, and I think his instincts could do that for him.

Yup. And Jon was thinking of Ghost at the last moment. I doubt he was thinking "I wanna go live in Ghost's head for a while." He was thinking "Damn, I hope they don't kill him too, like what happened to my brother's wolf." But I think it'll be enough to send his consciousness to the wolf.

[Gytha Ogg]

I am LOVING the Ghost-as-Nissa-Nissa theory and Jon, Azor Azhai, will have to kill him to temper Lightbringer (Longclaw). Jon thinks of Ghost at one point as closer than a wife. And he's the last think he thinks of before he dies. Mind=blown.

So tragic, yet so epic - so Martin.

[Ygritte]

I am LOVING the Ghost-as-Nissa-Nissa theory and Jon, Azor Azhai, will have to kill him to temper Lightbringer (Longclaw). Jon thinks of Ghost at one point as closer than a wife. And he's the last think he thinks of before he dies. Mind=blown.

So tragic, yet so epic - so Martin.

Either that or someone else (probably Melisandre) will kill Ghost to resurrect him in the first place, yeah.

I got to thinking that when I started thinking about Azor Ahai and what the original one had to do, and I was like, "well, who would Jon have to kill who would be as painful as killing a wife?" He had a lover, but she's already dead. I wondered about Melisandre, but they're not close enough for that to be epic tragedy. It basically came down to Ghost or Arya, and Arya's nowhere nearby.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

If Martin kills Ghost he better sign a pledge to leave the other three alone, I don't want to see any more dead direwolves.

[Ygritte]

If Martin kills Ghost he better sign a pledge to leave the other three alone, I don't want to see any more dead direwolves.

I hear ya. :crying: