[ADWD SPOILERS] Why all the praise?

[EddieLarkin]

Have the reviewers been a tad overzealous in their reviews about Dance? Don't get me wrong, I like the overall story, I like were things are going, I like the prose, I like the twists. But there are a number of things that keep this book far short of the original 3 imo.

1. The cheap endings. I was willing to accept them in Feast because it was half a book, but I feel it is very un-GRRM like to end a full chunk of the story in this way. In GoT, CoK and SoS we get major game changing twists, but in all cases we get the fallout immediately afterwards. Having Jon be stabbed in his last chapter was just unfair. It would be like Game ending at Ned's execution, or Clash ending with the arrival of Stannis' ships, or Storm ending at the Red Wedding, or Joffrey's Wedding, or Tyrion's trial.

2. All the padding. This directly relates to the above point, in that if GRRM had maybe kept the story a bit tighter, there would have been room at the end of the book to give a proper conclusion. Dany goes through a lot more in her 11 Clash/Storm chapters then she does in these 10, Jon certainly goes through a lot more in his 12 Storm chapters than in these 13, and holy crap does Tyrion go through a lot more in his 11 Storm chapters than he does in these 12. I know a lot of people, Elio/Linda included, have said they like more page time dedicated to nice prose and character development and world building etc, which I appreciate, but was ANYONE complaining about a lack of these things before Feast came out?

3. The Aegon twist. Maybe I missed something and people will be able to counter this one and make me look dumb, but I find it hard to accept this revelation. I like it, I like the fact a major character is brought back from the dead, I like the implications it results in and what is going to lead from it. But why on earth was Varys/Illyrio sending Viserys off to conquer Westeros if they had his nephew, who has a much better claim, in training? Why not TELL Viserys? What would they had done if his Dothraki bargain had actually worked out, and he invaded the Seven Kingdoms without consulting them? Wait until he is on the throne and then reveal his older brother's heir is alive? Would he have relinquished the seat after shedding blood to win it back? Would he even believe their claim that he really was Aegon? I'm not one to believe that GRRM ever pulls major stuff like this out of thin air, but it would have been nice for these things to have been explained.

[Ran]

The praise is probably because the critics think the book is worth praising, maybe? It seems a straightforward approach.

As to Aegon, I can point you to a thread on the old, old board back in 2001 where arguments (OLD arguments) about Aegon still being alive were being discussed. This was definitely not out of nowhere. Whoever was the person who guessed it first after ACoK and the Houses of the Undying, my hat's off to you.

[Ser Hippie]

Re #3: Contingency plans. Viserys and/or Dany might never make it back to Westeros (Viserys obviously won't, Dany still hasn't). Aegon might turn out to be another Mad King. I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that someone as crafty as Varys wouldn't put all his eggs in one basket.

[Slick Mongoose]

Well I really enjoyed it.

I can remember loads of theories as to Aegon still being alive. However, he's probably a fake. I get the impression that he was a backup in case Viserys didn't work out.

Edit: Although I kind of agree about the ending. It could have really done with some resolution in Meereen.

[EddieLarkin]

I enjoyed it too, and I didn't mean it isn't worthy of praise. Just that I think a little too much time in the reviews is dedicated to the good stuff, rather than a lot of the bad stuff.

And as I said in my post, I'm not one to believe that Aegon being alive hasn't been the intention from the beginning. But the fact that Varys and Illyrio knew about him all along and were indeed intending to have him invade and conquer Westeros all this time, seems a little problematic.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Yup, my biggest complaint is that there wasn't a bigger finale in Meereen.

Also, Dany, really, it took you this long to figure out that you shouldn't have stayed in Meereen and that you belong in Westeros? Isn't that what everyone kept telling you for basically the whole book?

[Ran]

Slick,

I agree, actually. My view is that Aegon is a fake... but not a back up. Look at Varys's last chapter: he wants a king that he groomed to rule, one who was raised to see it as a duty and not as a right, etc. If I wanted to be particularly looney, I would suggest that Aegon is Illyrio's son by Serra, and that he may or may not be descended of the female line of the Blackfyres.

Viserys and Daenerys were a stalking horse. If things went far enough for a Dothraki army to appear, they'd use that to add to the chaos and then open the way for their Aegon. They could kill Viserys at a drop of a hat, if they wanted, and Drogo too -- the Dothraki are unsophisticated and seem to make no effort to defend their khals against poison, anyways.

From what GRRM told us in the interview, this is one of the major points that he always had in mind from 1994-1995 or so. Certainly, the mummer's dragon in the Houses of the Undying strongly suggests he was laying the ground for it.

[Kaitscralt]

I haven't finished the book yet, but is there any chance that Aegon is the Mummer's Dragon and the scheme was only hatched after Viserys died?

[Ran]

Nope, the scheme is clearly an old one. I think Viserys, already clearly mad, clearly unfit to rule, was always going to be something of a sacrificial lamb. He was too unstable to put much trust in.

[EddieLarkin]

Ran

I also considered Aegon being a fake, but if he is, how is it that Jon Connington doesn't know this? I got the impression Jon has been with him for a very long time, and at least going by his internal thoughts in his two chapters, he completely believes Young Griff is Rhaegar's son.

[Slick Mongoose]

Yes, presumably the scheme must have been going from Aegon's childhood for him to get training, it can't be new.

I also considered Aegon being a fake, but if he is, how is it that Jon Connington doesn't know this?

Illyrio simply tells him that it's Aegon, smuggled out of KL. He looks right, and who is to say otherwise?

[banditry]

H

Dany goes through a lot more in her 11 Clash/Storm chapters then she does in these 10, Jon certainly goes through a lot more in his 12 Storm chapters than in these 13

I really agree with this. Jon's story arc is mostly caught up in his attempt to incorporate the Wall's bitter enemies - the Wildlings - into the Night's Watch, without seeming to understand or care how his brothers are going to react to this. He spends alot of time brooding about food and his sad lot in life, and that's about it. Really dull, to be honest, and he doesn't show much personality.

The Dany arc - - the characters in Meereen were generally barely drawn and uninteresting. The various slavers, merchants, sell-swords, etc... I realize that Dany's plan at the end of SOS was "to rule" so I guess we should have anticipated that GRRM's plan was to have her in Meereen over the course of this book, but I just found the whole thing rather... meh.

Not to say that I didn't enjoy both of these storylines to an extent, but I remember my reaction when finishing SOS and I just was dumbfounded at what I had just read.

DWD.. there were some great, great things. The Theon storyline, in particular, was harrowing and terrific. I thought Davos's brief appearance was great. The Bran chapters were beautifully written. I don't think the book is a disappointment overall. But it also didn't quite live up to my expectations, but maybe that's more a reflection on my expectations than anything else. I also read it VERY quickly, and am now beginning a more slow re-read, so I may appreciate it more the 2nd time around.

[Ran]

Connington was introduced into the plan several years after the fact, it seems. He says he last saw members of the Golden Company 12 years ago, when (at Varys's insistence) they concocted the notion that he had been dipping into the company treasury and was forced out. So I'm guessing Varys and Illyrio revealed their possession of "Aegon" about 5 years after the Sack, to Griff and to Blackheart. There's nothing indicating he knew anything about it before that time.

Even if he knew "from the start", he surely didn't know earlier than the Sack, and he had already been exiled for weeks or perhaps months at that time. He definitely wasn't a personal witness to the provenance of the child.

[abcd]

I haven't finished the book yet, but is there any chance that Aegon is the Mummer's Dragon and the scheme was only hatched after Viserys died?

From Illyrio's chapter we find that he hated Viserys, I don't think they were planning on handing the throne to him at ny point of time, It was always Aegon, Dany was a surprise.

[Slick Mongoose]

I agree, actually. My view is that Aegon is a fake... but not a back up.

Thinking about it, you're probably right.

Why not take Dany and Viserys young and get them trained properly, if they're your main hope? Word might get back to KL that you were doing so. Which is why they have to be left as backup. Everyone will have their eye on Viserys and Dany, nobody will be watching out for Aegon, he's dead.

[Arthanis]

Probably living Dany is needed to legitimize fake Aegon as part of her family. Everything you need is marrying her with this fake boy, then according to targarien tradition puppet-aegon will be legitimized kind.

I do not believe Aegon, son of Elia is still alive. Or... Maybe he is another living dead? (and still a puppet...)

[mr. peasant]

The praise is probably because the critics think the book is worth praising, maybe? It seems a straightforward approach.

I think the question was more aimed at is the book being seen as good on its own as a standalone book, because of where it sits in the overarching story and the things it has set up for future books, or the triumphant return of long lost yet loved characters? Based on people's comments thus far and what details have been discussed on the forums, it sounds like the book is primarily build-up for the next two books, which leads me to suspect the praise is for the second reason.

Nope, the scheme is clearly an old one. I think Viserys, already clearly mad, clearly unfit to rule, was always going to be something of a sacrificial lamb. He was too unstable to put much trust in.

I think is likely that Varys knew that Viserys would be never have been able to retake the Iron Throne and merely served as a decoy so that Robert didn't go around chasing after rumours of a surviving Aegon.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I agree Aegon is definitely a fake (otherwise why Dany would be called Slayer of Lies?). I like the theory he is Illyrio's son by Serra. It would explain why Illyrio is so unaccounatbly sad when he says good-bye to Tyrion.

Als, he appears to be too young. When Tyrion sees him, he thinks he looks 15, perhaps 16, while the real Aegon would have to be 20. In this age it is a big difference.

I didn't expect he will be so sympathetic, though. It is interesting move for GRRM to give Dany an antagonist who is potentially more likable than she.

[Brendan Moody]

the real Aegon would have to be 20.

The real Aegon wouldn't be 20-- he was still an infant at the Sack of King's Landing in 283 AL, and Tyrion meets him in early 300 AL. He'd be 17, or maybe 18 at most.

[Ran]

Aegon would be nearer 18 I think, not 20. A year old or so at Harrenhal, IIRC. But... that's a good point, I did not think of his apparent age according to Tyrion's estimate. Hrm, hrm, hrm.