[ADWD SPOILERS] Why all the praise?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Arya. I love Arya, and I loved her chapters, but I am a bit confused. Why do they keep moving her on in her training if they know she is still "Arya". She still chews her lip, I am convinced they are suspicious about her being a warg, and obviously she is not "no one".

Well, because it's a training process. People surely don't just walk in the street as "no one." That's an attitude that has to be slowly inculcated in the prospective Faceless Man over a period of time.

[Howling North]

Varys never lies. He just says that Aegon has arrived. That's the boy's name, isn't it? ;)

He also said no to him being dead, that's a whole other beast of a lie. There's really no point either for Varys to say one or the other unless he wanted to explain in full truth to justify it to Kevan. So I'm pretty sure the kid is legit, his hair and his eyes can't be faked, nor his features either. Griff was his father's friend after all, you'd have a hard time fooling him of all people.

And Tyrion could have easily been speaking metaphorically, since even those of the blood might not be what it means to be TARGARYEAN, look at Viserys.

Edit: In any event, you should have all seen the endings coming, if this book was done in the same vein as Feast then it was going to be about setup more then anything else. I don't really mind persay, I'm just going to agonize over the wait.

[Slick Mongoose]

Well, because it's a training process. People surely don't just walk in the street as "no one." That's an attitude that has to be slowly inculcated in the prospective Faceless Man over a period of time.

Plus she might be no one, by the end.

[Lord Varys]

You obviously are still someone (i.e. your true self) behind the other faces. So this 'no one' thing is just ideology, you don't have to forget who you truly are, you just have to follow the rules. Which are rather easy to follow, as no FM is ever charged to kill a person he is acquainted with. That's why all the sailors were most eager to tell Arya their names back in AFfC.

[Whitering]

So it's more about how efficiently you take on your new persona for however long rather than what happens to your original one?

Also, it's Braavos. If some ugly kid kills a man with a poisoned coin and then disappears, wouldn't you just presume it was a Faceless Man or some other assassin? I doubt there would be a city wide search that continued for any great length of time.

Freaky costume change :o

[Slick Mongoose]

So it's more about how efficiently you take on your new persona for however long rather than what happens to your original one?

Also, it's Braavos. If some ugly kid kills a man with a poisoned coin and then disappears, wouldn't you just presume it was a Faceless Man or some other assassin? I doubt there would be a city wide search that continued for any great length of time.

Freaky costume change :o

I think she was only searched for because of the theft, not the death - That looked like a natural heart attack.

[Yarl Snow]

Have the reviewers been a tad overzealous in their reviews about Dance? Don't get me wrong, I like the overall story, I like were things are going, I like the prose, I like the twists. But there are a number of things that keep this book far short of the original 3 imo.

1. The cheap endings. I was willing to accept them in Feast because it was half a book, but I feel it is very un-GRRM like to end a full chunk of the story in this way. In GoT, CoK and SoS we get major game changing twists, but in all cases we get the fallout immediately afterwards. Having Jon be stabbed in his last chapter was just unfair. It would be like Game ending at Ned's execution, or Clash ending with the arrival of Stannis' ships, or Storm ending at the Red Wedding, or Joffrey's Wedding, or Tyrion's trial.

2. All the padding. This directly relates to the above point, in that if GRRM had maybe kept the story a bit tighter, there would have been room at the end of the book to give a proper conclusion. Dany goes through a lot more in her 11 Clash/Storm chapters then she does in these 10, Jon certainly goes through a lot more in his 12 Storm chapters than in these 13, and holy crap does Tyrion go through a lot more in his 11 Storm chapters than he does in these 12. I know a lot of people, Elio/Linda included, have said they like more page time dedicated to nice prose and character development and world building etc, which I appreciate, but was ANYONE complaining about a lack of these things before Feast came out?

3. The Aegon twist. Maybe I missed something and people will be able to counter this one and make me look dumb, but I find it hard to accept this revelation. I like it, I like the fact a major character is brought back from the dead, I like the implications it results in and what is going to lead from it. But why on earth was Varys/Illyrio sending Viserys off to conquer Westeros if they had his nephew, who has a much better claim, in training? Why not TELL Viserys? What would they had done if his Dothraki bargain had actually worked out, and he invaded the Seven Kingdoms without consulting them? Wait until he is on the throne and then reveal his older brother's heir is alive? Would he have relinquished the seat after shedding blood to win it back? Would he even believe their claim that he really was Aegon? I'm not one to believe that GRRM ever pulls major stuff like this out of thin air, but it would have been nice for these things to have been explained.

#2 Fluffy filler bunnies

I have to agree with #2. When re-reading AGoT once, after not having read it in a long while, I was struck by how condensed it was. "Did all of this really happen so close together?" I found myself thinking many times. When reading ADWD (and AFFC), I found myself getting bored very often, couldn't keep focus sometimes and had to re-read the same sentence over and over. Admittedly, I rushed through the book, and was pretty tired, but sometimes I found myself genuinely annoyed. "Why do I need to know this?"

So many of the chapters contained filler material that I found it exhausting. Such as "Person A is going to this place. Oh my, thinks Person A, I am going to this place. What's going to happen there. Lets recap some things from earlier, and restate some thing back and forth. Oh ho, we're going to this place. Oh, we're not there yet." Or when Tyrion was signing papers, "Hey ho, another paper signed. Hey ho, another paper signed. Insert some thoughts and a funny remark. Tyrion signed another paper. Then, to everyone's surprise, Tyrion signed another paper. Just to mix things up, Tyrion then signed another paper. So, Tyrion looked at the pile of papers, took one, and signed it." On and on...

I understand the concept, but I honestly cannot say that some of this filler material could not have been condensed. Substantially. The paper signing could easily have been summarized as "Tyrion had been forced to sign papers, promising hundreds of thousands of gold to the Second Sons, but what of it? If ever he made it back ..."

I never quite understood Tyrion's journey either. From Illyrio, to Griff, to Jorah, to slavery, to Daenerys (oh, but they didn't get to meet), to the Second Sons. I found myself being impatient. Jon had a similar journey north of the wall in ASoS, but that was very, very different. Tyrion's journey seemed more like Brienne's endless trek of the Riverlands. And in the end, as pointless.

Quentyn's purpose was... to loose the dragons? Another random event, involving a possibly large new character, only to show how small he is, and then kill him off. A pointless exercise, IMO.

After reading AGoT, ACoK and especially after reading ASoS, I found myself thunderstruck, upset, touched to tears on many occasions. I plowed through these books, and kept coming back to re-read them. In comparison, ADWD felt very much like AFFC. Too much fluff, too little emotion, nothing happening. I feel compelled to re-read ADWD to see if I underestimated it, but so far, I have not been able to force myself to do it.

Jon

I have no problem with Jon being stabbed. It was surprising, but still foreshadowed well. But what annoyed me is that GRRM did what he always does when killing off people: First he shows them being stupid and blind to certain warning signs, then he shows them being surprised. Robb chained Grey Wind in the stables at the Twins for some ungodly reason. Even after Grey Wind "showed" him the warning signs and aggression. Jon shut Ghost inside a tower, despite being cautioned by Mel to keep him close. And for what? Some boar. He sees Ghost going crazy, and despite being so sensitive to Ghost's moods and senses - heck, he IS Ghost on some occasions - he still thinks it's about the boar. Ned was similarly stupid when he got caught and killed. Daenerys, who we have earlier seen go from victory to victory, always being hard and just and clever was suddenly turned into a vapid, weepy girl, being similarly stupid about most things. Is it not possible to have people get betrayed without them first acting stupid?

No, I think GRRM has lost focus. The three first books were polished silver bullets, striking with pinpoint accuracy, ADWD - like AFFC - is a mess. Too many new people, too much strife happening to people I only half care about (like Theon and Asha), too much filler material, and most of all, no emotion, no heroes.

Aegon

When Tyrion "revealed" Aegon, it felt anticlimactic to me. When I read it, there was no sense of "wow", just another piece of information. It also did not fit with Viserys and Daenerys' stories, like I have seen people mention. When I read it, I suspected that - judging by the names from this board in GRRM's dedication - he had changed the story, because he had read the fan theories, and wanted to do something unexpected. All in all, I am inclined to doubt that Aegon is the real Aegon. If for nothing else, because GRRM revealed him in such a haphazard way.

Anyway... right now, I am at the stage where I'd want to finish the series, just to know what happens, but I am disillusioned and starting to doubt George's genius, which makes me really, really sad. Daenerys was probably the biggest disappointment, Tyrion the second biggest.

Although it's not all bad. I found myself really enjoying Victarion, for a change. And Davos' chapters were really enjoyable, hinting at Manderly's double play. The pork pie scene was excellent, but would have been exceedingly better if followed up by something a bit more concrete. Jon's story progressed well, and the ending was a surprise. A double surprise in that I did not feel too angry when it happened (unlike the Red Wedding or Ned's execution). Also, ADWD answers many questions and gives a lot of new information about old mysteries. Sometimes this feels interesting, some times, it feels like the information was just dropped in as an after-construction.

Too many cheap endings. Yes. And too many loose threads, dangling randomly in the wind.

[Ran]

He also said no to him being dead, that's a whole other beast of a lie.

He said, "No. He is here." Which is true. The boy called Aegon's alive and well and here. Kevan only thinks to himself that Aegon Targaryen is being spoken of, he's not in a state to gasp anything beyond the fact that this boy Varys is talking about is dead.

Is he actually Aegon Targaryen? I'll eat my hat if he is. I'm very confident ATM. :)

[Yarl Snow]

He said, "No. He is here." Which is true. The boy called Aegon's alive and well and here.

Is he actually Aegon Targaryen? I'll eat my hat if he is. I'm very confident ATM. :)

Reading your posts here, I am reminded of Barristan's POV, where he seems to hint that he and Ashara Dayne had a child that died, and Ashara throwing herself into the sea out of grief. What if Ashara's son is the Aegon imposter? As I recall, Ashara did have Targaryen features.

[Ran]

Someone else suggested that. That said, Ashara had dark hair, apparently (we also thought it was ash-fair, like Edric) and Barristan said she had a stillborn daughter. I guess there could have been a male twin we never heard of...

[Kaitscralt]

Robb chained Grey Wind in the stables at the Twins for some ungodly reason. Even after Grey Wind "showed" him the warning signs and aggression.

Robb had no choice but to keep Grey Wind in the stables. Walder Frey demanded it, and Catelyn noted that Robb was very insulted and angry.

"Have your wolf or have your wedding, sire. You'll not have both." - WF

[Slick Mongoose]

With Aegon, the "Mummer's dragon" could mean he's real but Varys is controlling him, it's true, but the "cloth dragon" vision from the House of the Undying seems to indicate more strongly that he's fake, and i'm not sure if you can get around that one with wordplay.

[Yarl Snow]

Robb had no choice but to keep Grey Wind in the stables. Walder Frey demanded it, and Catelyn noted that Robb was very insulted and angry.

"Have your wolf or have your wedding, sire. You'll not have both." - WF

There was more than that to it. Robb had no more faith in Grey Wind, he did not listen to Catelyn's warnings. "Should I have Grey Wind sniff all my knights?"

Robb may not have had any choice, but he walked blind and stupid into that trap, knowing how treacherous WF was.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Yup, ADWD suffers from the lack of a central narrative. On the parts of the book where there was one, it worked a lot better.

Tyrion's arc was one that suffered the most, his entire story lacked any drive or agency. He was a slave or prisoner almost the entire time, starting with Illyrio mansion and ending with the Second Sons' camp, and all his does is observe and talk to his captors, that's it. The only chapter of his that was actually exciting was the one where he took initiative to escape, but after that he was back to being held again with the Second Sons

I think of all of them Tyrion's chapters were the most disappointing.

[Werthead]

he had changed the story, because he had read the fan theories, and wanted to do something unexpected

Except that Aegon showing up has been a fan-favourite theory for ten years, ever since 'Griff' and 'Young Griff' were first mentioned in a chapter read out a con in 2002 (IIRC). As Ran said, some people even predicted it as early as ACoK coming out in 1998 from the House of the Undying stuff.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I found this book much more entertaining than AFFC and read it more or less in one go (work-sleep-read-work-sleep-read ;) ).

There was certainly quite a bit of padding but awesome and entertaining padding, at least for me. :D

The endings were a bit cliffhanger-heavy though.

[banditry]

There was more than that to it. Robb had no more faith in Grey Wind, he did not listen to Catelyn's warnings. "Should I have Grey Wind sniff all my knights?"

Robb may not have had any choice, but he walked blind and stupid into that trap, knowing how treacherous WF was.

I agree with your point about the Starks seeming obliviousness to heeding the warnings of their wolves.

But when did Lord Walder show such treachery that anybody could have or should have anticipated the Red Wedding? Only thing mentioned was that he was "Late" to the cause in the rebellion. The Red Wedding was a shock to all, and seems to have greatly further diminished the Freys reputation. I wouldn't characterize that situation as Robb walking blind into a trap.

[banditry]

Interesting quote in the GRRM interview up on the main Westeros page that sheds alot of light into his thinking. He considers setting, atmosphere, and character development as important as plot advancement. Sometimes I think I'm so eager to get to the end of the story and answer the questions I want answered that I dismiss some of the other stuff. I'm actually appreciating ADWD more in my re-read so far.

When I've read across the series, when you look at A Game of Thrones, it feels really tightly written, quite plot heavy as it sets up everything. And then from there, atmosphere and character seems to come to the fore more. Was that always intended or is this a by-product of the increasing complexity of the story?

My goal in all my writing is always to provide the reader with a vicarious experience, and I think atmosphere is part of that. While I think the advancement of the plot is certainly important, it's not the single most important thing. If the advancement of the plot were the most important thing, we'd be reading Cliffs Notes and not the novels themselves. The plot is one factor that makes a successful novel, but not the only thing. So things like atmosphere, setting, and particularly character are equally crucial, if not more crucial. I think character is really the heart of fiction.

[Howling North]

He said, "No. He is here." Which is true. The boy called Aegon's alive and well and here. Kevan only thinks to himself that Aegon Targaryen is being spoken of, he's not in a state to gasp anything beyond the fact that this boy Varys is talking about is dead.

Is he actually Aegon Targaryen? I'll eat my hat if he is. I'm very confident ATM. :)

And I don't see the point of playing word games with a dead man. Varys would as well. He's only doing this explanation as a courtesy to Kevan, it would be insulting to the man as he's dieing and Varys was if anything indicative of his respect for Kevan.

And I'll be sure to hold you to that. You can't fake those features, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could. Much easier to replace a newborn babe then it would be to find a boy that could match his families infamous look and have the appearance and disposition of nobility, and at the same time try to fake him to a person who was especially close to the family and the boy's father.

[Howling North]

Yup, ADWD suffers from the lack of a central narrative. On the parts of the book where there was one, it worked a lot better.

Tyrion's arc was one that suffered the most, his entire story lacked any drive or agency. He was a slave or prisoner almost the entire time, starting with Illyrio mansion and ending with the Second Sons' camp, and all his does is observe and talk to his captors, that's it. The only chapter of his that was actually exciting was the one where he took initiative to escape, but after that he was back to being held again with the Second Sons

I think of all of them Tyrion's chapters were the most disappointing.

I think isn't that the point though? AFFC and ADWD was about set-up and character development, about coming to grips with the reality of ones positions.

Of course it did, this was Tyrion after killing his father, after learning that the most important moment in his life regarding his wife was a lie and a betrayal. This was Tyrion on the run, in exile and branded a traitor. He has no cause or direction really, he's subject to the whims of others and is simply going along with the flow because he has too. It speaks well of Martin that he didn't jump right into Tyrion's story despite how it might have dragged on (that and it gave an opportunity for exposition on what Essos proper is like from the commoners perspective) for some, because its realistic for one to have to reconcile with these issues before they can move on. That was true of Jon and Dany as well, since everything they did in the end comes to naught.