[ADWD SPOILERS] Why all the praise?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Yes, meanderings are realistic but they aren't interesting to read. Part of the art of writing is to quickly get past the drudgery and focus on the important and the exciting.

[Howling North]

Robert Jordan could spend 3 pages writing about nothing but a flower and a bee landing on it. Authors get more leeway when they have a series, especially when this part of the series is all about set-up and development, about undergoing new trials and lessons for the coming confrontation at the end of the series. As a companion book too AFFC, I'm surprised people aren't understanding that.

[jurble]

I really want to know why Illyrio and Varys want their own puppet-king so bad. I mean, both men by now are fabulously wealthy. Illyrio gives his reasons. Does Varys really just want a stable kingdom? Or perhaps it is out of some familial loyalty vaRYS after all (could be he's descended from Aerion Brightfire.)

[Brendan Moody]

I think Varys genuinely imagines that Aegon's upbringing will make him a better king than any of the contenders who were raised as nobles. He'll probably be wrong about that-- tragically so-- but on this point, at least, his comments in the epilogue struck me as sincere.

[Faint]

Getting back to the subject of this thread, I do think not enough was made in reviews about the unnecessary cliffhangers littering the final portion of the book. Ultimately, I think they really detracted from many of the positives the book does have (and there are many, to be sure). Episodic writing of this nature might be more tolerable if the series saw regular release. But matters being what they are, the decision is a poor choice to say the least. I give credit to the reviewer on Tor.com who at least made mention of this shortcoming. Reading Time magazine you might have thought we were getting the Great Gatsby or Ulysses.

[Fez]

Getting back to the subject of this thread, I do think not enough was made in reviews about the unnecessary cliffhangers littering the final portion of the book. Ultimately, I think they really detracted from many of the positives the book does have (and there are many, to be sure). Episodic writing of this nature might be more tolerable if the series saw regular release. But matters being what they are, the decision is a poor choice to say the least. I give credit to the reviewer on Tor.com who at least made mention of this shortcoming. Reading Time magazine you might have thought we were getting the Great Gatsby or Ulysses.

To be fair though, the very mention that there are too many large cliffhangers could itself be considered a fairly large spoiler. Its hard to talk about the end of the book in any way that doesn't ruin something for first-time readers, and up until the end I thought ADWD was absolutely fantastic. I still do really; though I am disappointed by all the cliffhangers as well.

[Howling North]

I'm sad they were there, but I thought they cliffhangers were done rather well, gave this indication of being really on the cusp of a sweeping change that's about to take place, which is what a set-up/character development book should do in my opinion.

[Faint]

To be fair though, the very mention that there are too many large cliffhangers could itself be considered a fairly large spoiler. Its hard to talk about the end of the book in any way that doesn't ruin something for first-time readers, and up until the end I thought ADWD was absolutely fantastic. I still do really; though I am disappointed by all the cliffhangers as well.

I do think we must differentiate between good cliffhangers and those more poorly executed. I've no problem with the epilogue or how Daenerys' story ended. Cliffhangers they were but they told us something important and pointed us in the direction the story was going, all the while giving us a nice thrill and raising our level of intrigue. Jon's last chapter on the other hand, because it was the last chapter, was a complete abomination. As the reviewer on Tor.com pointed out, why bother with it when nobody (excluding the gullible) will believe him dead? Jaime's chapter was equally bizarre. So out of place with the rest of the book, covering a section of the story so far afield from everything else we were reading, and turning a pointless Brienne cliffhanger into a pointless Jaime one. I think it would have served the story better to jettison the chapter altogether and saved it for TWoW.

This is not to say I did not enjoy the book but I wish someone had advised the writer differently on how the story should have wrapped up in certain points. I do not know what to make of the book as a whole yet, I think I will give it some time to sink in. Right now though, my initial view is that of a sloppy collage, beautiful in some spots, confounding in others, with some noticeable swaths left undone. In other words, a mess of sorts, albeit, an entertaining one.

[Howling North]

Are you saying that George shouldn't have killed off Jon or that he shouldn't have left it off where Jon appeared to be dead? If you're going to do something momentous, no matter how short lived, you might as well savor it. I don't mind anyway, the doubt it'll engender until the confirmation will keep people guessing until Winds comes around, even if they are 90% sure.

[Faint]

I'm saying he shouldn't have left it off there. It's an artificial cliffhanger if there ever was one and one not to be resolved until . . . 2015?

As for the chapter itself, I didn't think for a second Jon was permanently dead when I read it and have not since even considered the possibility, remote as it is in my opinion (and by remote I mean, literally impossible). Moreover, I've no problem with Jon actually getting stabbed and/or possibly dying only to be revived again. It fits the narrative of the story and where his leadership of the Night's Watch was taking him. More importantly, it now seems necessary for him to have died since it does indeed seem he is Azor Ahai.

I suppose, if I were to argue against myself, I would bring up the point that I might be terribly wrong about how soon Jon's "death" will be resolved. It might be that it will take time for Melisandre to get her wits about her and bring him back, or if not her, someone else, in which case, the writer simply did not have room to continue the storyline. But if all this is resolved in the first or second Melisandre POV in TWoW, my criticism of this cliffhanger will grow more severe.

[Axon]

I have to agree. The Jon cliffhanger would be one thing, but essentially every character in the novel has some form of a cliffhanger to resolve.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I could have put up with the Jon cliffhanger if we got to see the battle at Meereen.

As it is, nobody got a resolution. Other than maybe Bran.

[Howling North]

Oh I'm pretty sure given all the mention of Warging that Jon will be out of it for awhile, in Ghost most likely so I wouldn't say we'll be losing his POV entirely, and its not likely to end at least until the Other's begin their invasion. This will no doubt throw the Watch into chaos and finally provide the opportunity to break through the Wall and wreak havoc on Westeros.

The situation could tie in nicely with Bran, as Jon (if he warged) would need to somehow try to keep his mind together as part of Ghost. Even if Mel does save his body, that combination may leave Jon stuck in limbo for awhile, where I could easily see Bran trying to bring him out of it, as he did to a lesser extent with Theon, only this time harder because it'll be more magical in nature.

[Brendan Moody]

GRRM has acknowledged in an interview that the book has more cliffhangers than he would have liked; he prefers a balance between cliffhangers and resolutions. I would guess that the late editorial decision to exclude two story sequences so the book would be finished now and at a publishable length resulted in the extra cliffhangers. It's disappointing to me, but not horribly so.

[Snowy89]

Slick,

I agree, actually. My view is that Aegon is a fake... but not a back up. Look at Varys's last chapter: he wants a king that he groomed to rule, one who was raised to see it as a duty and not as a right, etc. If I wanted to be particularly looney, I would suggest that Aegon is Illyrio's son by Serra, and that he may or may not be descended of the female line of the Blackfyres.

Viserys and Daenerys were a stalking horse. If things went far enough for a Dothraki army to appear, they'd use that to add to the chaos and then open the way for their Aegon. They could kill Viserys at a drop of a hat, if they wanted, and Drogo too -- the Dothraki are unsophisticated and seem to make no effort to defend their khals against poison, anyways.

From what GRRM told us in the interview, this is one of the major points that he always had in mind from 1994-1995 or so. Certainly, the mummer's dragon in the Houses of the Undying strongly suggests he was laying the ground for it.

I don't think we can say Aegon is a mummer's dragon if he's descended from the Blackfyres through the female line, because his forefathers were still dragons, I don't think anybody considers the Blackfyres mummer's dragons, maybe only bastard dragons ;)

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

The Blackfyre are called "pretenders", which is the same as false.

[Snowy89]

The Blackfyre are called "pretenders", which is the same as false.

Pretenders to the Iron Throne, not to being descended of dragons IMO.

[Mark3]

There is a LOT to like about the book...it may seem like padding, but the character and background adds a lot to the world...I loved Wylla Manderly's speech, Doran's story about the Water Gardens, Jorah and Tyrion meeting the Widow in Volantis, the background stuff about Brandon and Lord Rickard. All good. Further, it really is George's best writing of the series.

However, the ending is just so unsatisfying. There is a serious, serious lack of resolution and forward movement on the main conflicts of the book. I am a firm believer that even in a serialized series every book should have it's own arc, conflicts, and resolution even if they are not the absolute ones that come only the conclusion of the series. The first 3 ASOIAF novels did. In Feast, incompleteness was understandable because it was only half of the intended story. Dance was supposed to be the other half...yet at its conclusion only Cersei's arc over the course of the 2 novels feels satisfying. Actually, Arya and Bran's arcs feel complete too - but they had much shorter arcs for this span as they are in training.

Victarion is heading toward Mereen....and is still heading there; Mereen is beset by enemies, and is still beset. The north is divided and at war, and is still at war; Tyrion is trying to reach Mereen, and is still trying...etc. etc., etc.

I posted in another thread a link where Anne Groell mentions that 2 major sequences George originally wanted in DANCE were moved to WINDS. My assumption is that these were payoffs to the build-up we got in the North and Mereen IMO, they really should have found a way to get those in, as DANCE is sans a climax.

[jefe91]

The Mummer is Varys, Ageon is his dragon, thus the Mummer's Dragon

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

The Mummer is Varys, Ageon is his dragon, thus the Mummer's Dragon

I have not thought of this until now. This is a gread idea.