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[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing


Lord Varys

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Varys didn't groom Tyrion to kill Tywin. Tyrion did that all on his own. Yes even Varys can't be held responsible for everything.... <_<

True, although maybe Tywin can be blamed for this. He pushed Tyrion as far as he could be pushed. At some point he had to push back, family or not.

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On the meta level, who within the story would be able to provide definitive clarification of A+J=T? That's always the biggest problem I've had with the idea. It's plausible enough, and would provide some clarity to Tyrion's fascination with dragons, but I hate it from a story level and don't see that GRRM has left himself any pre-conceived exposition "outs" (as opposed to, say, Howland Reed).

For someone that has never been seen 'on screen' Howland Reed has a heck of a lot of explaining to do, especially for a simple cranno man.

I truly felt that Howland would appear in this novel as we get closer to the truth of Jon, however, to also lump Howland with another secret in regards to Tyrion is too much IMHO. If there was some secret to Tyrion's parentage and Howland knew, wouldn't that also infer that Ned would too.

I just hope that when Howland does appear (and I have been waiting for him since the ToJ was 1st mentioned) that the pay-off is worth the wait.

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God, I hope not. If it turns out that Tyrion is yet ANOTHER secret Targaryen, I'll quit the series right then and there. Seriously: how many secret Targaryens have we had now? Three? Four? Way to cheapen the pathos of the dynasty's fall, Martin. And way to make Dany's character development and rise to power practically meaningless.

Really? With all of the Targaryen bastards from Aegon The Unworthy's reign, not to mention distant cousins, etc, I'd think that "Targaryens are a dime a dozen" would be the obvious conclusion.

I think that it is a great joke to share with the reader. Such a big deal is made in the early books over how special and magical and rare the Targs are, when really, we find out they are not all that special, or magical, or rare. I mean, look at the dynasty's history - some of them were terrible, incompetent rulers. This is true of all the great houses.

I think the point is that Dany is special because she is Dany, not because she is a Targaryen princess. And if she wants the throne, she is going to have to win it through her actions alone, not her pedigree.

According to Westeros law, she would have been completely overlooked in the line of succession. Viserys, had he lived, would have had claim to the throne before her, as will Aegon. As a woman, Dany has no political standing in Westeros at all.

I think the same goes for Tyrion (or Jaime and Cersei) if they end up being Targaryen bastards. Being related to Aerys ultimately makes no difference at all in the grand scheme of things. They still can't inherit the throne as Targs - Aerys never legitimized them. And they were still raised by Tywin as Lannisters, which is where their true loyalties probably lie.

As for training dragons, I'm not convinced that it takes a Targ to do that, just someone who knows about dragons and has a strong will. (and maybe flame-resistant pants)

The dragons are more just likely to obey Dany because they have imprinted on her.

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This theory never made a lot of sense to me but then again I've been wrong before.

As for Tyrion having "platinum blond hair" mixed with black...no. It is regular blond hair mixed with black. This may not disqualify him but I don't believe his appearance in this regard can be used as proof. The mismatched eyes is a better bit of evidence along with the "Aerys loved Joanna" thing.

Again, though, I don't think it makes a lot of sense. Plus as someone else said there are too many Targaryens running around as it is.

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Reading closely Barristan's recollection there are some hints though.

On Tywin and Joanna's wedding, Aerys remarked aloud what a shame that "First Right" had been abolished and he has supposedly acted in a manner that made Tywin furious with him.

So the seeds are now sown that consensual or not, an intimate relationship MAY have occurred between the two. We don't know. I do know that Aerys was crazy enough to burn Rickon and Brandon alive and Joanna might have been persuaded to go along because you don't exactly want to defy the MAD KING.

I feel ambivalent one way or another over this.

I do recall that Martin has been pretty ruthless over the course of the series with those who break guestright (like the Freys) as well as kinslaying and such.

Also Tywin muttering that Tywin is no son of his on his deathbed or deathtoilet or whatever can be taken to mean more than one thing.

Unless GRRM feels comfortable eventually destroying and/or killing his favorite character, I wouldn't be surprised to read some twist later on which reveals Tyrion as in fact not being father by Tywin thus absolving him of the bad karma of kin-slaying at least by blood.

Not saying this theory is correct, it is still looney in my mind but it is FEASIBLE and remember that with the return of Aegon, looney theories have come true before . . .

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Maybe Joanna was raped or just abused by Aerys. What does it mean?

1. Tywin has good reason to kill his "old friend"

2. As we know there is something like "moon tea abortion drink" - don't you think lord Tywin could force/ask Joanna to drink it to not born Aerys child? [another option: he could do it secretly, without telling wife what is she drinking]

3. What If Joanna drank abortion drink? As we know targaryens are immune to illness and toxins... What if unborn child survived this "execution"?

4. Child survived because of Targ blood, but embrio may be damaged or deformed. Maybe dwarfness is this kind of deformation?

5. Joanna could become very ill after this failed abortion. If she tried to make abortion knowingly, she probably decided to give child the birth after all. If Tywin gave her drink secretly, she could just be very unhappy on him. Nevertheless she decided to give child a birth.

6. Joanna gave Tyrion birth, because of failed abortion joanna died soon while child was deformed.

What next?

- Tywin know he is truth reason of Joanna death (because he gave her a abortion drink)

- Tywin know he is truth reason of Tyrion deformation (as above)

- Tywin at the same time feel guilty and hate Tyrion (because he think their both killed Joanna). He want see him dead, but he cannot do it or ask anyone to do it in his name.

- He do not reveal his personality for the same reason as Ned hiding Jon's personality - Being Targ mean death from hand of Robert. On top of that Tyrion remind him someone he loved (Joanna-Lyanna) and maybe he promised something (like Ned).

Conclusion?

Puzzle completed :)

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After reading the part where Barristan was talking about Aerys and Joanna, I just hope that either (a) it will end up not meaning anything concerning the Lannisters (maybe the part about the man who loved Rhaella will be the important part?) or (B) if any of the Lannisters turn out to be Aerys', it will be Cersei and Jaime.

I really, really hope that Aerys doesn't turn out to be Tyrion's father - wouldn't the irony be much more delightful if Tywin was killed by the only one that actually was his child? (Though I mind end up being disappointed, I just have that kind of luck.)

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I always thought that Tywin being Tyrion's father is a relevant point in Tyrion's character development and the story itself. So I find it hard to believe that Aerys would be his father... BUT. If I were to shoot how could that have happen the solution is simple :

1. Aerys gets his way with Joanna (Tywin does not know, or if he knows, does nothing, because he can't)

2. Tywin carries with his marriage duties as always unaware his wife is already pregnant with Aerys child

3. Tyrion is born! And Tywin might even be sure it's his son.

I think that is Tywin KNEW, really, really knew that Tyrion is not his son he would have killed him long ago. Probably right after the delivery. And just claimed that the child was to weak to survive (such an easy solution).

I think the whole excellent Tywin-Tyrion dynamic relies on the fact that the dwarf, imp, freak really is Lord Tywin true born son. Son he can't get rid off, who proves himself worthy, but still is a dwarf and nothing can change that.

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After reading the part where Barristan was talking about Aerys and Joanna, I just hope that either (a) it will end up not meaning anything concerning the Lannisters (maybe the part about the man who loved Rhaella will be the important part?) or (B) if any of the Lannisters turn out to be Aerys', it will be Cersei and Jaime.

I really, really hope that Aerys doesn't turn out to be Tyrion's father - wouldn't the irony be much more delightful if Tywin was killed by the only one that actually was his child? (Though I mind end up being disappointed, I just have that kind of luck.)

This would be /absolutely delicious/. If Cersei and Jaime, who Tywin was so proud of, were in fact part Targ and seed of the mad king, while Tyrion, whom he hated, was his only son and heir...that would be AMAZING. It might also explain the Cersei-Jaime incest-town to a certain extent. Targs, twisted from the start! I love this theory. I don't know that I buy it, but I really, really love it.

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I think the whole excellent Tywin-Tyrion dynamic relies on the fact that the dwarf, imp, freak really is Lord Tywin true born son. Son he can't get rid off, who proves himself worthy, but still is a dwarf and nothing can change that.

Couldn't agree more. Tyrion being revealed as Aerys' son rather than Tywin's would be negating that whole dynamic, giving an "excuse" (that term used very loosely here) for Tywin's hatred of Tyrion and eventually for his murder by him (if Tywin wasn't his actual father, he wouldn't be considered a kinslayer, etc.) I rather prefer the idea of Tywin hating Tyrion for what he is, not for him not actually being his son. Adding that to Tyrion's mismatched eyes, love of dragons, and so on, it would just feel too cliche to have him not be Tywin's son.

Also, seeing as a possible new Targaryen (I'm not 100% convinced of his identity) has just been introduced to the story, having another one pop up would just feel forced.

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After reading the part where Barristan was talking about Aerys and Joanna, I just hope that either (a) it will end up not meaning anything concerning the Lannisters (maybe the part about the man who loved Rhaella will be the important part?) or (B) if any of the Lannisters turn out to be Aerys', it will be Cersei and Jaime.

I really, really hope that Aerys doesn't turn out to be Tyrion's father - wouldn't the irony be much more delightful if Tywin was killed by the only one that actually was his child? (Though I mind end up being disappointed, I just have that kind of luck.)

Ser Boniface the Good and his Holy Hundred- given control of Harrenhal by the Lannisters?

Promising knight in his youth, set his lance aside and became super-pious for reasons no-one knows? Except, perhaps his peer in age, Barristan the Bold.

I rather like the idea that the twins are Aerys's children. Makes Jaime both regicide and patricide, makes it more tragic that Aerys would not wed Cersei to Rhaegar (or, given his own marriage, perhaps he had another reason to resist), gives Cersei's madness and arousal due to wildfire a root, etc. Tyrion being Tywin writ small is then more ironic, as he would be the only one truly sired by Tywin.

But I agree he's probably not headed in that direction.

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Really? With all of the Targaryen bastards from Aegon The Unworthy's reign, not to mention distant cousins, etc, I'd think that "Targaryens are a dime a dozen" would be the obvious conclusion.

Maybe I should have clarified. If minor characters turned out to be Targaryens, I wouldn't mind. It's this idea that every unique, unusual POV character has to be a Targaryen that I hate. Martin used it with Young Griff turning out to be Aegon. I suspect he's using it with Jon. And I have a bad feeling that he's using the idea with Tyrion as well. It's starting to get old. What's next, is Brienne going to be half-Targaryen? Will Davos turn out to be Rhaegar in a wig and a false beard? Will Arya turn out to be the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna? Enough is enough.

I think that it is a great joke to share with the reader. Such a big deal is made in the early books over how special and magical and rare the Targs are, when really, we find out they are not all that special, or magical, or rare. I mean, look at the dynasty's history - some of them were terrible, incompetent rulers. This is true of all the great houses

Funny; for me it has the exact opposite effect. The idea that Tyrion is a Targaryen really destroys his character development and everything else that made Tyrion, well, Tyrion.

Tyrion killed his father and will now be branded as a kinslayer? Doesn't matter, because Tywin wasn't his father anyway!

Tywin was an abusive asshole who made his son's life a misery for no reason? Turns out he does have a reason, because Tyrion isn't his son! And Aerys raped his wife!

Does Tyrion's unique personality come from his upbringing and relationship with his family? No, he's a Targaryen! That explains everything!

Tyrion dreams about riding a dragon and burning his father and sister alive? He's a Targaryen, so it's perfectly normal!

I'm sure you get the idea. This plot twist reminds me of those horrible fanfics where some abused outcast teenager turns out to be a wizard, or an Elf, or a Jedi, and as soon as he or she fulfills his or her destiny and finds true love, all psychological damage magically disappears. Why can't Tyrion just be Tywin's and Joanna's son, a trueborn Lannister who was abused by his sadistic father and sister, without bringing some special secret ancestry into it? Why does he have to be absolved of killing his father and wishing rape on his sister through a cliched plot twist? It's a cheap, lazy whitewashing of Tyrion's character.

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3. What If Joanna drank abortion drink? As we know targaryens are immune to illness and toxins... What if unborn child survived this "execution"?

Targs are not immune from illness and toxins, so far the only immune Targ has been Dany walking out of that fire with her dragons

Daeron II and his grand children Valarr and Matarys died in the Great Spring sickness

Egg's older brother Daeron died of pox caught from a whore

Aerion brightflame died after drinking a cup of wildfire.

Heck even Vserys did not have Dany's heat immunity when Drogo "crowned" him

Which mean's Dany's immunity was a one time thing and to the extent it still exists applies only to her dragons (theor fire not their breath)

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It makes much more sense that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys'. For one thing, Cersei and Jaime's temperaments are far more similar to Aerys' than Tywin's, and Tyrion's is far more similar to Tywin than Aerys.

Also, in Feast Jaime dreams of his mother and his mother says, "We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them." Jaime replies, "I am a knight. Cersei is a queen" and his mother's response is to cry. My sense of this passage is that his mother is hinting that he and Cersei are not Tywin's children. There's an intriguing difference because she uses Tywin's name only in that paragraph, elsewhere she uses the title "your lord father" and asks "I wonder if you knew him truly?"

Genna's conversation with Jaime about Tywin is also revealing. She said that Tyrion was Tywin's son and Tywin had raged at her. I get the feeling that deep down, Tywin knew that it was Cersei and Jaime who were the bastards, not Tyrion, but he blamed Tyrion for his wife's death and felt it easier to presume he was the bastard.

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Also, in Feast Jaime dreams of his mother and his mother says, "We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them." Jaime replies, "I am a knight. Cersei is a queen" and his mother's response is to cry. My sense of this passage is that his mother is hinting that he and Cersei are not Tywin's children. There's an intriguing difference because she uses Tywin's name only in that paragraph, elsewhere she uses the title "your lord father" and asks "I wonder if you knew him truly?"

Joanna's response in the dream/vision is easily explained by Jaime turning out to be the "smiling knight" rather than the "sword of the dawn" (so, instead of a "true knight" he became the equivalent of a robber knight). And Cersei, well she was queen but Joanna (who was a kind and decent person from what we've been told) wouldn't exactly be proud of what her daughter has become by that point, would she?

I rather like the Tyrion as hidden Targaryen theory. There have been very slight hints right from the start, with his dragon fascination, his rapport with Aemon, Jon noticing "for a moment, his shadow stood as tall as a King's". Just like Dany and Jon, he would have been born under tragic circumstances (none of the mothers survived) and the conception is also suspect for all three. Dany's mother seems to have been raped outright, even if it was by her husband, and circumstances for Lyanna (and maybe Joanna) are unclear.

I also am quite convinced Varys is lying and Argon VI is not Rhaegar's son, and he is a Blackfyre or some other Valyrian instead (or maybe a Targaryen offshoot, from Aerion Brightflame or someone like him). So that would be one Targ less then. Also, a delicious irony if Aegon is a pretender (well, Varys would be pretending, Aegon doesn't know himself) and actually looks a lot like Rhaegar, while his true son Jon doesn't and is not known to be a Targ, and likewise for Tyrion and Aerys.

That it would get Tyrion off the hook for patricide is a plus, because I think Tyrion will survive the series and may even end up on the throne. On the other hand, he would still be a Lannister through Joanna anyway so any Lannister treats he has can be explained through her. That he is Tywin's son in so many ways (Genna's remark) is not conclusive; Jon Snow also is Eddard's Stark son to the bone, even though he actually isn't (pretty sure). Tyrion was raised by Tywin and apparently he's a quick study.

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Joanna's response in the dream/vision is easily explained by Jaime turning out to be the "smiling knight" rather than the "sword of the dawn" (so, instead of a "true knight" he became the equivalent of a robber knight). And Cersei, well she was queen but Joanna (who was a kind and decent person from what we've been told) wouldn't exactly be proud of what her daughter has become by that point, would she?

I rather like the Tyrion as hidden Targaryen theory. There have been very slight hints right from the start, with his dragon fascination, his rapport with Aemon, Jon noticing "for a moment, his shadow stood as tall as a King's". Just like Dany and Jon, he would have been born under tragic circumstances (none of the mothers survived) and the conception is also suspect for all three. Dany's mother seems to have been raped outright, even if it was by her husband, and circumstances for Lyanna (and maybe Joanna) are unclear.

I also am quite convinced Varys is lying and Argon VI is not Rhaegar's son, and he is a Blackfyre or some other Valyrian instead (or maybe a Targaryen offshoot, from Aerion Brightflame or someone like him). So that would be one Targ less then. Also, a delicious irony if Aegon is a pretender (well, Varys would be pretending, Aegon doesn't know himself) and actually looks a lot like Rhaegar, while his true son Jon doesn't and is not known to be a Targ, and likewise for Tyrion and Aerys.

That it would get Tyrion off the hook for patricide is a plus, because I think Tyrion will survive the series and may even end up on the throne. On the other hand, he would still be a Lannister through Joanna anyway so any Lannister treats he has can be explained through her. That he is Tywin's son in so many ways (Genna's remark) is not conclusive; Jon Snow also is Eddard's Stark son to the bone, even though he actually isn't (pretty sure). Tyrion was raised by Tywin and apparently he's a quick study.

She is talking about what Tywin wanted though, not what she wanted. And whatever one may think of Jaime and Cersei, you can't say that they are not strong, brave and beautiful or that they are a knight and a queen. They didn't disappoint Tywin in that regard. And Tywin certainly didn't seem to have much of a problem with Jaime killing Aerys. Jaime struggles with it, but I don't think it made Jaime a failure in Tywin's eyes.

Tyrion sharing Tywin's personality is not conclusive, true. But none of the evidence that Tyrion is a son of Aerys is conclusive either. I mean, I imagine most boys in the Seven Kingdoms thought dragons were cool. I don't know, but it makes more sense to me this way.

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It is Joanna who is unhappy though, not Tywin. She sees beyond the pretty facade, what her children have become, and it is not pretty.

Nothing is conclusive at this point, GRRM has left the possibility open but it could go either ways.

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It is Joanna who is unhappy though, not Tywin. She sees beyond the pretty facade, what her children have become, and it is not pretty.

Nothing is conclusive at this point, GRRM has left the possibility open but it could go either ways.

Joanna may be unhappy in the dream, but the implication is that she is unhappy because Tywin didn't get what he really wanted (i.e. strong, brave, beautiful children). I would argue that Tywin did have strong, brave, and beautiful children who are a knight and a queen. Therefore, her sadness is because they are not Tywin's.

Jaime obviously takes it the way you see it, but who's to say that he has it right? He obsesses about turning into the Smiling Knight so that's how he interprets the content of the dream. I don't think that it's the only way to interpret it.

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