[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing

[IceSt0rm]

I honestly don't see why everyone is so up in arms about the possibility of Tyrion being a Targ (assuming A+J=T). I think it fits and it's something Martin has been hinting at since aGoT and it doesn't really cheapen Tyrion's character. Tywin still raised Tyrion and raised him as his son, even if Aerys was Tyrion's father, Tyrion killing Tywin is just as bad as it would be if Tywin was his true father. It also might explain some of Tywin's doubts. Tywin probably lived his life unsure as to Tyrion's parentage and to err is human. This may also explain the crackpot theory that Joanna didn't die and became a silent sister.

I honestly think it would be cool if Tyrion has Targ blood, and it doesn't make him any less a Lannister. Also everyone here seems up in arms about all the Targs running about. Last I checked we weren't sure that Aegon returned is actually Targaryen. I find it doubtful after the dubious circumstances surrounding his escape and how he was subsequently given to Jon Connington. From the sounds of it, it took several years before "Aegon" was given to Jon to foster. Why? And what's that about Aegon's eyes again?

[Sega AM2]

I honestly don't see why everyone is so up in arms about the possibility of Tyrion being a Targ (assuming A+J=T). I think it fits and it's something Martin has been hinting at since aGoT and it doesn't really cheapen Tyrion's character.

Tyrion in A Game of Thrones talks to Jon about how he dreams of Dragons. When he was a child he would light fires in the Red Keep in the dungeons near the Dragons' skulls and pretend that they were alive.That he was riding on his own Dragon. He reads about them, talks about them, dreams about them. Dragons. Tyrion has always dreamed of Dragons.

Then later, in AFFC I believe, Maester Aemon tells Jon (or Sam?) that he sees Dragons in his dreams. He closes his eyes and he sees them flying and breathing fire. He hears their screams calling to him in the winds. Aemon reads, talks, and dreams about Dragons as well. Well maybe he doesn't read because he's blind. Even though the Dragons are gone he sees them in his dreams as if they are alive.

The parallel is obvious. Is GRRM foreshadowing or hinting that Tyrion is a Targ? A secret Targ? Or maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe it's a red herring. Maybe Tyrion's obsession with Dragons is what leads him to become Dany's Dragon Whisperer and it is nothing more than that.

[Mirieine]

For someone that has never been seen 'on screen' Howland Reed has a heck of a lot of explaining to do, especially for a simple cranno man.

I truly felt that Howland would appear in this novel as we get closer to the truth of Jon, however, to also lump Howland with another secret in regards to Tyrion is too much IMHO. If there was some secret to Tyrion's parentage and Howland knew, wouldn't that also infer that Ned would too.

I just hope that when Howland does appear (and I have been waiting for him since the ToJ was 1st mentioned) that the pay-off is worth the wait.

Of course, now that Bran can presumably see past events as a greenseer, there is another route thru Bran for any clarifications of past events (parentage for Jon or Tyrion etc) at least for the readers' sake, not that necessarily anyone would buy it if Bran pops up and tells them that he saw something important in a dream. But that makes everything less Howland Reed-dependent.

[Ygritte]

Of course, now that Bran can presumably see past events as a greenseer, there is another route thru Bran for any clarifications of past events (parentage for Jon or Tyrion etc) at least for the readers' sake, not that necessarily anyone would buy it if Bran pops up and tells them that he saw something important in a dream. But that makes everything less Howland Reed-dependent.

True. For example, I've wondered (and seen other people wonder) whether Lyanna and Rhaegar were married by the rites of the old gods. Which would mean...in front of a heart tree.

[Nightwyng]

I rather like the Tyrion as hidden Targaryen theory. There have been very slight hints right from the start, with his dragon fascination, his rapport with Aemon, Jon noticing "for a moment, his shadow stood as tall as a King's". Just like Dany and Jon, he would have been born under tragic circumstances (none of the mothers survived) and the conception is also suspect for all three. Dany's mother seems to have been raped outright, even if it was by her husband, and circumstances for Lyanna (and maybe Joanna) are unclear.

I also am quite convinced Varys is lying and Argon VI is not Rhaegar's son, and he is a Blackfyre or some other Valyrian instead (or maybe a Targaryen offshoot, from Aerion Brightflame or someone like him). So that would be one Targ less then. Also, a delicious irony if Aegon is a pretender (well, Varys would be pretending, Aegon doesn't know himself) and actually looks a lot like Rhaegar, while his true son Jon doesn't and is not known to be a Targ, and likewise for Tyrion and Aerys.

That it would get Tyrion off the hook for patricide is a plus, because I think Tyrion will survive the series and may even end up on the throne. On the other hand, he would still be a Lannister through Joanna anyway so any Lannister treats he has can be explained through her. That he is Tywin's son in so many ways (Genna's remark) is not conclusive; Jon Snow also is Eddard's Stark son to the bone, even though he actually isn't (pretty sure). Tyrion was raised by Tywin and apparently he's a quick study.

Reading this, a thought just came to me. Wouldn't it be pretty funny if Varys the spider who seems to know almost everything, sets up a False Targ in Aegon and has NFI that Jon is heavily implied to be one and to a lesser extent now Tyrion.

If either or both of these 2 are Targ's I would find this beautiful irony, especially if in some way Arya is the one that tells him this info, just before she kills him.

We can dream right? That to me would be some poetic juctice.

[Nightwyng]

I honestly don't see why everyone is so up in arms about the possibility of Tyrion being a Targ (assuming A+J=T). I think it fits and it's something Martin has been hinting at since aGoT and it doesn't really cheapen Tyrion's character. Tywin still raised Tyrion and raised him as his son, even if Aerys was Tyrion's father, Tyrion killing Tywin is just as bad as it would be if Tywin was his true father. It also might explain some of Tywin's doubts. Tywin probably lived his life unsure as to Tyrion's parentage and to err is human. This may also explain the crackpot theory that Joanna didn't die and became a silent sister.

I honestly think it would be cool if Tyrion has Targ blood, and it doesn't make him any less a Lannister. Also everyone here seems up in arms about all the Targs running about. Last I checked we weren't sure that Aegon returned is actually Targaryen. I find it doubtful after the dubious circumstances surrounding his escape and how he was subsequently given to Jon Connington. From the sounds of it, it took several years before "Aegon" was given to Jon to foster. Why? And what's that about Aegon's eyes again?

My problem lies with what someone else mentioned earlier. Why do all the major players in this have to be Targs? If the answer is because of the Dragons I find that a cop out too. I know it was the Targs that 'tamed' the Dragons and brought them to Westeros to conquer the realm.

However, after all this time isn't it possible for someone other than a Targ to have a connection with a Dragon? I can see how anyone with Warg abilities could at least communicate with a Dragon and thus be a chance of riding one, making that connection.

Also as I mentioned before this whole notion of I am not who I think I am is getting old. Jon we get, he doesn't know he's mother. But Tyrion...please. As others have mentioned, he's story is more powerful if the dwarf is the true born son of Tywin.

[Nightwyng]

True. For example, I've wondered (and seen other people wonder) whether Lyanna and Rhaegar were married by the rites of the old gods. Which would mean...in front of a heart tree.

Wouldn't that be something. If that did occur, then Jon is no bastard but a true born heir he would "jump" ahead of Dany (but still behind an actual real Aegon) in the line of succession.

Is it just me, or the more tidbits we get about Lyanna the more you want to know? I mean the hints we have been show suggest heavily she was strong willed, independant, very capable with swordplay, more potential at a young age than a future 1st Ranger.

All signs that indicate she was not a woman who would easily be taken and held against her will, even by a Prince and Heir like Rhaegar.

[Joanna vander Poele]

Tyrion is definitely a trueborn Lannister... or so I hope. Him turning out to be Aerys' son ... I would be mad as hell :angry: His whole antagonistic dynamic with his dad would be totally cheapened. In general I thought Young Griff turning out to be Aegon was cheesy and completely left-field... so no more secret Targaryens, please (unless it's Jon, I guess, which seems pretty obvious).

[Ser Pistus]

I am basically against the "Tyrion is Aerys's son" theory, but I found something interesting: if the theory is true, Jaime killed Tyrion's father and Tyrion killed Jaime's father. :D

[Ser Pistus]

I am basically against the "Tyrion is Aerys's son" theory, but I found something interesting: if the theory is true, Jaime killed Tyrion's father and Tyrion killed Jaime's father. :D

What is more, both fathers needed to be killed, the sooner the better.

This reminds me the old Billy Crystal & Danny DeVito movie Throw Momma from the Train.

[Smallfolk11]

I found another piece of evidence that might support Tyrion as a Targ. After Tyrion falls into the water with the stone men and swallows a ton of liquid, a character mentions that he has a huge risk of getting grey scale. Connington, who picked Tyrion up from the water, did get grey scale from touching him. But, as of right now, Tyrion is fine. Daenerys mentioned that Targs didn't seem to get sick from common pestilences, so that might be a clue.

[Maia]

The ironic thing is, that even if it turns out that Tyrion is Aerys's, he'd still be considered a kinslayer, because he was condemned for and in his bitterness also repeatedly claimed responsibility for Joff's murder. And of course, Tywin would still be his second cousin and larger part of the reason for killing Shae.

[Thefalconemperor]

I am basically against the "Tyrion is Aerys's son" theory, but I found something interesting: if the theory is true, Jaime killed Tyrion's father and Tyrion killed Jaime's father. :D

Better yet to have the twin wonders to be Aerys' and Tyrion to be Tywin's. Now, that would be dramatic.

- Aerys didn't had a sister to marry to Rhaegar and refused Cersei... without knowing she was Rhaegar's sister.

- When Aerys told Jaime to kill his father and he murdered him instead, he was only accomplishing orders all along.

- Tyrion also kills his true father much like Jaime, being his only true son after being rejected for so long.

- Tommen and Myrcella are kin to Aegon and Dany and could be somewhat legimitate. What to do with them?

[Ser Pistus]

Better yet to have the twin wonders to be Aerys' and Tyrion to be Tywin's. Now, that would be dramatic.

I love it.

[Wouter]

I found another piece of evidence that might support Tyrion as a Targ. After Tyrion falls into the water with the stone men and swallows a ton of liquid, a character mentions that he has a huge risk of getting grey scale. Connington, who picked Tyrion up from the water, did get grey scale from touching him. But, as of right now, Tyrion is fine. Daenerys mentioned that Targs didn't seem to get sick from common pestilences, so that might be a clue.

Good catch! I am liking this theory more and more.

[GrandPoobah]

Some of you seem to get so hopped up on the fact that it's a fantasy series that you forget that Martin tends to leave non-magical things to work the way they do in the real world.

In other words, dreams are not transferred genetically. Neither is one's character. Targaryens are not magically immune from sickness (as has apparently been firmly established in this book).

While certain things like one's general temperament, learning disabilities and mathematical aptitude could be passed down to children by way of genetic factors that impact the brain, the way a person thinks (or dreams) is less of a nature thing than a nurture thing. Aerys' madness more likely has a genetic cause (200 years or so of Targaryen inbreeding).

Tyrion grew up in a family that was close to the Targaryens. His elder brother (who may have grown up in court?) later joined Aerys' kingsguard. He buried himself in books.

All that aside, I don't find it completely unthinkable that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard. His being a dwarf could be attributed to a couple of centuries of Targaryen inbreeding.

[Wouter]

That one's character is not genetically transferred in ASOIAF is true (I beg to differ on the dreams thing though, this does seem to be a Targ treat). However, this is rather a point in favour of the theory: Tyrion is Tywins son in many ways, in his character, his intellect, his way of thinking. But if you say that this is not (necessarily) genetically determined, then it is major argument against the theory that gets shot down. The main reason Tyrion would be Tywins son (besides it being the generally accepted truth in westeros, of course) is exactly that character-wise, they are so alike.

[Swedish Chef]

Cersei does seem to have a bit of the Targ insanity. Tyrion was always noted as the true son of Tywin though, which leads me to believe that he is indeed a Lannister. I don't think any children came of the Aerys/Joanna union, as Tywin would have them thrown down a well.

On the other hand...for those complaining about hidden Targs...Martin has told us plenty of times that the dragon has three heads. So now we have Aegon, Dany, and ???. Its a pretty good bet that ??? will get filled in sooner or later.

I'm not sure why people don't want to believe in Young Griff as Aegon either. He was sitting around learning about how to be a king in hiding for the first 3 books, doing nothing of note. His introduction at that point was as good a time as any. That Varys would have saved him and kept him in hiding makes plenty of sense.

[mh-t]

How could Tyrion's deformity be chalked up to centuries of Targaryen inbreeding? To my knowledge, there has been nothing about deformities in other Targs. I find it very unlikely that the one time a Targaryen DIDN'T have a child with his sister, the child turned out deformed.

[Coals]

Tyrion's deformity could be chalked up to inbreeding whoever his dad is, as Tywin and Joanna were cousins. And whos to say that other babies born to Targaryens werent killed at birth if so deformed (its obvious from the Vipers comments that Tyrion's were apparent from birth)

Just playing devils advocate. I personally like the idea that Cersei and Jamie are Aerys, I do love a bit of irony.