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[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing


Lord Varys

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I agree that it could be the result of Tywin and Joanna being cousins. All of the houses are pretty interrelated anyway, so it's not that surprising. I'm just saying that it's not good evidence that he is Aerys'.

As to the other point though, if Tywin Lannister didn't kill his dwarf son who killed his wife, I have a hard time imagining the Targaryens would kill their dwarf children, though I could be wrong.

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Viserys claimed a lot of things that weren't true. We have several examples of Targaryens dying of plagues and disease -- the Great Spring Sickness carried off Daeron the Good, Valarr, and Matarys, Daeron the Drunken died of a pox, and so on.

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I still hope this is a giant red herring. But if it's not, the clues were there. In addition to what's already been mentioned here, Tywin's last words to Tyrion were "You are no son of mine." In ADWD, Tyrion muses to himself about how Tywin's last words were "wherever whores go" -- but those were his second-to-last words. He's remembering it wrong and could be missing an important clue.

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It would mean a lot. Tywin was the only father he ever knew and I think the scene which was handled well in the TV series where Tywin says to Tyrion before leading he's men into Battle.

"That you are my son." Shows this.

I don't believe Tywin ever understood Tyrion and found he's appearance next to he's Adonis like siblings diturbing, but still, Tywin claimed Tyrion as a Lannister and to a Lannister that means everything.

Well, but you remember that scene from the BOOK, don't you? It wasn't said out of any love. Tyrion figures out right away that he's saying that because he gave up Jaime for dead. And I don't think the argument is that Tywin knew about it. My guess would be whatever the case, he believes Tyrion is his son.

Also, in response to another post about Dany having no claim at all, that's not true. She would in theory be behind Aegon, and she certainly would have been behind Viserys, but that's it. It was even stressed in this book that females aren't totally removed from the lines of inheritance...the Karstark girl was heir before her uncle, and I don't believe we've ever been given the impression that if Tommen were to die, the throne would pass to Stannis over Myrcella (if we pretend they were Robert's trueborn kids).

I'd also point out, to those who are complaining that everyone is a Targ...this has actually been very vaguely hinted at. There isn't even the tiniest bit of evidence that Davos, Brienne, any of the Starks minus Jon, etc. are part Targaryen, but Tyrion has had that hinted. Not nearly as clearly as here, but he has dragon dreams, which we were told Targaryens had. Plus he'd be a bastard (even if we went by the suggestion of Targ polygamy and Rhaegar marrying Lyanna, I trust nobody's suggesting Aerys secretly married Joanna?). He'd have Targ blood but he's still got no claim. And for what it's worth, I don't see how this significantly changes anything. He was raised by Tywin Lannister and raised as Tywin's son. Would Jon's entire story arc up to now be completely ruined if he isn't Ned's son, even though he was raised by Ned, thought he was Ned's son, acts like Ned in many ways, etc. etc.? I really don't see why it would.

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Well, but you remember that scene from the BOOK, don't you? It wasn't said out of any love. Tyrion figures out right away that he's saying that because he gave up Jaime for dead. And I don't think the argument is that Tywin knew about it. My guess would be whatever the case, he believes Tyrion is his son.

Also, in response to another post about Dany having no claim at all, that's not true. She would in theory be behind Aegon, and she certainly would have been behind Viserys, but that's it. It was even stressed in this book that females aren't totally removed from the lines of inheritance...the Karstark girl was heir before her uncle, and I don't believe we've ever been given the impression that if Tommen were to die, the throne would pass to Stannis over Myrcella (if we pretend they were Robert's trueborn kids).

Yes. The succession after Aerys II, had everyone lived, would have been (I think):

Rhaegar

Aegon

(R+L child, if they had a male child and were married)

Rhaenys

(R+L child, if they had a female child and were married)

Viserys

Dany

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If there are any Lannister Targs, it's the twins. We know about Joanna and Aerys from Ser Barristan. I want to just take a look at what he said.

About the night Tywin and Joanna were married…

“…your father [Aerys] drank too much wine at the feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words or the… the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace…”

I highly doubt Joanna ever left Castery Rock, and Tywin wouldn’t let her go to KL to a king he knew wanted her. And why would the king be roaming around Casterly Rock? No, Aerys and Joanna were near to each other around the time of Tywin’s wedding and Ser Barristan says after an embarrassed pause that Aerys took “liberaties” during Tywin’s bedding. So methinks that if there are any Lannister Targs, it’s the twins. Unless they found themselves together a decade later… (raises one eyebrow) I'm going on that question: how did they meet to conceive?

The irony is, Tyrion was denied being Tywin’s son since birth and Cercei says to Jaime when he proposes they wed “But we’re not Targaryens!” And Jaime’s aunt also says, “Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you.”

Seems like subtle hints to me. Tyrion would be the obvious choice… and GRRM never picks the obvious choice – the fantasy “dream come true” scenario.

Tyrion: Oh my God! I'm Targaryen! I'm one of the dragon's three heads! It's more than I ever could have hoped for...

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Also something else worth thinking about: nobody, including Tyrion, knows why he got the typical/ancestral Lannister name while Jaime and Cersei got, well, Jaime and Cersei. I dunno why Tywin would honour him with that.

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Yes. The succession after Aerys II, had everyone lived, would have been (I think):

Rhaegar

Aegon

(R+L child, if they had a male child and were married)

Rhaenys

(R+L child, if they had a female child and were married)

Viserys

Dany

Viserys would have been ahead of Rhaenys, the Targs placed men ahead of woman in the line of succession after the Dance of Dragons.

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Viserys would have been ahead of Rhaenys, the Targs placed men ahead of woman in the line of succession after the Dance of Dragons.

No, children come before siblings, regardless of gender (Alys Karstark and Asha Greyjoy both point this out in the book). Rhaegar's daughter comes ahead of Rhaegar's brother.

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I feel like it was meant to tell us more about Tywin and how he came to be responsible for the Sack of King's Landing. Between this and what we found out before about Aerys rejecting Cersei, etc. it seems now like Tywin wanted Aerys dead as far back as the Defiance of Duskendale and tried to make it happen (only to be "cheated" by Barristan). But I could also see how GRRM might enjoy messing with readers by dropping a big "Tyrion is a Targaryen!" clue in there.

I'd really (very much) rather that not be true, though. At that point the Targaryens would be the Skywalkers of ASoIaF. "What's that? We're not related by blood? Sorry, you don't get to help us save the world."

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The ironic thing is, that even if it turns out that Tyrion is Aerys's, he'd still be considered a kinslayer, because he was condemned for and in his bitterness also repeatedly claimed responsibility for Joff's murder.

Actually, it was proven in a court of law that Tyrion killed Joffrey. When Gregor squeezed and smashed Red Viper's skull, that was the proof. Any confession of Tyrion's would be redundant.

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Enough with the secret Targaryens already, Jon is really the only plausible one(and the backstory of the theory makes it too juicy to ignore)

Enough with the circumstantial evidence, just look at the idea as a whole. If it were true, how could it not cheapen the series as a whole? It's such a Harry Potter idea. Why would anyone want this to be true? It's a terrible idea and cheapens Tyrion as a character. It's so much more poetic and sad that Tywin Lannister was needlessly cruel to the only offspring of his that was his "True" heir. He is his father's son in terms of mind. But when he sees that and sees himself in Tyrion, he goes through fits of self loathing and he takes it out on his son

I will curse all of you to the seven hells if Tyrion is a Targaryen, because GRRM could only have gotten such a harebrained scheme from fanboys.

What I'm saying is that I don't approve of this theory.

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Actually, it was proven in a court of law that Tyrion killed Joffrey. When Gregor squeezed and smashed Red Viper's skull, that was the proof. Any confession of Tyrion's would be redundant.

That depends on the observer. Jaime didn't believe the official trial (rightly so), but he did believe the (false) confession.

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No, children come before siblings, regardless of gender (Alys Karstark and Asha Greyjoy both point this out in the book). Rhaegar's daughter comes ahead of Rhaegar's brother.

The Targaryens placed all male claimants ahead of any female ones after the Dance of the Dragons. What the Karstarks or Greyjoys do is inconsequential, because they are not Targaryens.

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The ironic thing is, that even if it turns out that Tyrion is Aerys's, he'd still be considered a kinslayer, because he was condemned for and in his bitterness also repeatedly claimed responsibility for Joff's murder. And of course, Tywin would still be his second cousin and larger part of the reason for killing Shae.

I dunno, is half nephew close enough to be considered Kinslaying?

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The wallowing Tyrion seems to be doing and the acceptance of all these grievious sins? That's the part that gets me. Methinks GRRM has him protest too much.

I'm a kinlsayer and a kingslayer;I killed my father and my mother and my nephew.

No. He didn't. His mother died in childbirth. No knock on Tyrion. We also know he didn't kill the king, yet Tyrion embraces this sin too, for reasons unknown. And he says (and believes) he killed his father, too. That would be the one truth out of all of this littany of false sins -- except I think that given the over-the-topness of it all, that one will prove to be false as well.

The Elephant in the Room: The Metaplot of the Series

Lastly, and probably most importantly: the Dragon has three heads.

There is NO WAY that Aegon is real. If Varys and Illyrio had a real Aegon all this time, they wouldn't have made this grandiose bet on Viserys and Daenerys first. They would have been the backup plan and Aegon would have been Plan A.

But instead, Aegon was Plan B. You don't raise the true heir to the throne and then make him Plan B. That's the part that gives proof to the lie. No way.

Remember when Varys tells Tyrion in ACoK his riddle about where power resides? It's in the same book where the mummer's dragon is foretold in the House of the Undying, Remember: the image Dany sees is a fake dragon on poles being cheered by the crowd. Slayer of Lies. The prediction about a fake dragon is *not* just the more equivocal term "mummer's dragon" that Quaithe uses. Every prediction in the House of the Undying has proved true so far. But now suddenly, that one is false? No way.

In the same novel where the vision of the false dragon is introduced to us, GRRM tells us through Varys -- to Tyrion -- that power resides where people believe it resides. That is Varys (and GRRM) foreshadowing the fake dragon.

The MetaPlot: While Varys seems to know all sorts of things that the reader does not, there are many things that we know that Varys does not. We know the whole prophecy thing is real and that the dragon has three heads. We know one is Dany, we are pretty damned sure the other is Jon (in fact, Melisandre pretty much resolves that one for us with her own visions -- the reason that GRRM allows us to see through Mel's POV in ADwD.) So where is the third head of the dragon? Because it can't be Aegon.

What? GRRM is going to come out of nowhere in a seven book series and spring some new Targ on us in Book 6 or 7? It was only supposed to be a trilogy to begin with. If we want to look to the three heads of the dragon, we need to look at the three main characters in this series that are introduced in A Game of Thrones. That's Jon, Dany and Tyrion. Sorry if that's too "metagamey" for you all -- but just because it's meta doesn't mean it's wrong; in fact, it usually means it's right.

"All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes". "And for a moment, Tyrion Lannister stood as tall as a King".

It was before our eyes since the first time we lay eyes on him in the series.

We just needed to find out how and why. Ser Barristan has clarified that for us quite a bit. This is not a red herring. It's the truth.

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