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[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing


Lord Varys

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They're telling us now that (well, implying) that Daenerys was ALWAYS Plan B, and they expected her to die after getting an army from Drogo for Viserys to go stir some shit up in Westeros

Then suddenly their Plan B/fake goose has 3 mf'ing dragons flying around, so they had to extend her role a bit because suddenly she's got these assets

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They're telling us now that (well, implying) that Daenerys was ALWAYS Plan B, and they expected her to die after getting an army from Drogo for Viserys to go stir some shit up in Westeros

Then suddenly their Plan B/fake goose has 3 mf'ing dragons flying around, so they had to extend her role a bit because suddenly she's got these assets

No. They told us that Viserys was Plan A, and Daenerys was an afterthought; the price of Khal Drogo's army. Either way, Aegon was Plan B.

And that's bullshit. No way was Viserys the guy with 50,000 Dothraki screamers when Aegon was available. People in Westeros might buy it, but they aren't privy to Dany's visions in the House of the Undying.

Magic and prophecy shows us that Varys is a liar.

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Enough with the secret Targaryens already, Jon is really the only plausible one(and the backstory of the theory makes it too juicy to ignore)

Enough with the circumstantial evidence, just look at the idea as a whole. If it were true, how could it not cheapen the series as a whole? It's such a Harry Potter idea. Why would anyone want this to be true? It's a terrible idea and cheapens Tyrion as a character. It's so much more poetic and sad that Tywin Lannister was needlessly cruel to the only offspring of his that was his "True" heir. He is his father's son in terms of mind. But when he sees that and sees himself in Tyrion, he goes through fits of self loathing and he takes it out on his son

I will curse all of you to the seven hells if Tyrion is a Targaryen, because GRRM could only have gotten such a harebrained scheme from fanboys.

What I'm saying is that I don't approve of this theory.

:bowdown:

What I'm saying is that I'm with you 100%.

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I dunno about that. Varys' in the epilogue sure doesn't sound like that was his backup plan.

Varys is giving a speech in front of his little birds; moreoever, in a Keep with secret passages and cunning places to eavesdrop which is famous for its little birds, he may have been giving his speech to people he didn't know were present, too.

Whatever the case, there were most definitely witnesses to that speech.

Littlefinger goes to great lengths to remind Sansa that you ALWAYS repeat the lie as if it's the truth. "You mean, if he lies?"

Littlefinger and Varys read the same book on scheming. Varys was lying to the audience -- and to the potential audience.

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Actually, it was proven in a court of law that Tyrion killed Joffrey. When Gregor squeezed and smashed Red Viper's skull, that was the proof. Any confession of Tyrion's would be redundant.

Really? Last I checked, Ser Gregor didn't survive that battle either.

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No. They told us that Viserys was Plan A, and Daenerys was an afterthought; the price of Khal Drogo's army. Either way, Aegon was Plan B.

And that's bullshit. No way was Viserys the guy with 50,000 Dothraki screamers when Aegon was available. People in Westeros might buy it, but they aren't privy to Dany's visions in the House of the Undying.

Magic and prophecy shows us that Varys is a liar.

I don't buy this for a second. Viserys and Daenerys were pretty much left to their own devices, running around homeless and poor in the free cities. The only thing Illyrio/Varys seems to have done for them is help Viserys sell her to Drogo. People are wondering why he gave her the dragon eggs, but I think they were just a wedding gift, Targaryens had been trying for centuries to hatch dragons and they had all failed, no reason to suspect they would succeed now. That's it. Like one of them said, he expected Daenerys to die on the Dothraki Sea.

Consider what they've gone through with Aegon, keeping a close tab on him and his training, getting him to Connington, etc. They moulded him. Seems pretty obvious Aegon was always Plan A from the start.

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Of course, it's also possible that Aerys raped/slept with Joanna and that she gasp didn't even get pregnant!

I think that if any of Tywin's children are in fact Aerys' bastards, not only does it cheapen the family dynamic as a whole immensely, but it doesn't even possibly accomplish anything that couldn't be achieved by other means (as in, there're a few ways Tyrion could wind up riding a dragon without being half Targaryen, if that's what Martin has in mind for him).

That, and regardless of whether or not Tyrion is truly kin to Cersei and Jaime, that isn't going to stop him from killing them one way or the other. He's made it abundantly clear what he thinks of his surviving siblings, and heaven help them both if he ever gets within arms-length (or crossbow range) of either of them.

I think the whole "Aerys took prima nocta with Joanna" bit from Barristan was just there to give some more context to why Aerys and Tywin hated each other so virulently... and in that way, it succeeded completely.

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I think the whole "Aerys took prima nocta with Joanna" bit from Barristan was just there to give some more context to why Aerys and Tywin hated each other so virulently... and in that way, it succeeded completely.

I didn't take it as an admission by Barristan that Aerys took prima nochte with Joanna. That might leave us with Jaime and Cersei and one too many dragons! Moreover, I don't think Tywin -- or the rest of the Lords of the Seven Kingdoms -- would ever have stood for it. That would have meant war.

I took it as Aerys suggesting prima nochte in a creepy, dark manner, whilst groping Joanna far too much during the undressing and the bedding and a few fingers went to places they really ought not to have gone to (or perhaps, in to). It was more than ribald good fun -- it was outright unseemly and it pissed Tywin off (quite reasonably so).

Barristan holds it out as an expression of what he believed Aerys wanted: that he lusted after Joanna. Barristan's evidence is personal, it is not hearsay. He was there.

So where can we go with this? Well Aerys is not only the King -- he's the Mad King (at the time of a theoretical Tyrion conception, probably the slightly Mad King and getting progressively Madder, King.)

Years later after the wedding, as an opportunity presented itself, would Aerys have pressed that advantage and raped her at some point -- or seduced her to the point where she felt she couldn't say no? If Joanna rejects the King, Tywin might lose his position as Hand. The only people nearby are the Kingsguard and they WILL NOT save you -- and she knows it.

Her refusal -- or later disclosure of having been bedded by the King to Tywin -- could well plunge the realm into war and end up with her children dead.

No. So she meekly goes along with it and, afterwards, she gets the hell out of dodge and does not return to KL. And she probably tells nobody about it at all.

It's really not that much of a stretch.

I wouldn't believe any of this, except:

1 - The dragon has three heads

2 - The House of the Undying proves that there is a false dragon being cheered by the crowd;

3 - Quaithe warns Dany about the "mummer's dragon"

4 - I'm not buying how the real King suddenly shows up in book 5 as Plan B

5 - All the rest of the stuff that points to Tyrion as a future dragon-rider, almost from the very start of the series.

We are missing a dragon, and the new one we have has been shown to be a false one in prophecy.

Find a new one that fits the facts and the metaplot of a fantasy series, given all of the above.

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Ok so what we know of the history of these two--

Joanna was lady in waiting to Rhaella when she was still a princess, so prior to 262 AL. Aerys and Rhaella married in 259 AL, and it is unknown when Tywin and Joanna married, but I think it likely it was before 262 AL as Barristan refers to him as Prince Aerys in this passage.

Since Barristan says "a drunken jape, nothing more" , I find it unlikely that the liberties mentioned were anything more than some heavier groping than you'd normally see at a bedding ceremony.

Jaime and Cersei were not born until 266 AL, so I think we can say that they are not the product of any wedding night shenanigans. Tywin packed Joanna off to Casterly Rock when he became Hand, probably to keep her away from Aerys.

So far as we know, there she stayed. It's possible that she came to court once or twice during that time. With Tywin serving as hand, he likely didn't go home to the rock much, and Tyrion had to get conceived SOMEHOW. That Twyin doesn't out and out know it is impossible for Tyrion to be his means he saw Joanna in the time frame she conceived. This sounds like a visit to KL to me, and why not? She was friends with Rhaella, and she and Rhaella had to hatch the plan to marry their kids to each other sometime, why not then? Tyrion was born around 274 AL, and I find it more likely that he is Joanna and aerys' than Cersei and Jaime.

After all, the twins look like..Lannisters. I'd think that if they were half Targ, the Lannister genes would have bowed before the more potent Targ coloration, as evidenced by how Lannister coloration bows to other families: baratheon (in the histories Ned read), Frey (Emmon and Genna's kids) are the two major examples I can think of.

Tyrion on the other hand, has white blond hair like Aerys, not the beaten gold color of the Lannisters. Whoever said above that it was half regular blond and streaks of black is wrong. That is his beard. Jon describes him in GoT as having a lank fall of hair so blond it was almost white. Tyrion was born during the period after the Defiance of Duskendale, when Aerys and his wife's marriage had palled, and he began forcing himself on her, but before Tywin resigned as hand at the Harrenhal tournament. Might he not have forced himself on Joanna as well?

She surely wouldn't tell tywin if he had, Tywin would be the kind to react strongly to such a thing, to the potential ruin of their house. They also wanted Cersei to marry rhaegar and any allegation of rape against Aerys would have put paid to that plan, although Aerys put paid to it himself several years later by denying Tywin.

So if anyone in Lannister is a Targ, it most likely is Tyrion.

edit for additional thought: if the twins were aerys', you'd think Joanna would know of it, or at least suspect, and might not have been so eager to marry Cersei to her Half brother.

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Yes, I think Tyrion as a Targ is growing quite likely now. The hints were there in AGOT already.

I'm going to predict him to end the books on the throne, quite possibly still married to Sansa.

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Really? Last I checked, Ser Gregor didn't survive that battle either.

Then check again. In my book Gregor was wounded by Oberyn's spear, but was alive when they carried him off the fighting grounds.

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The Tyrion Targ theory makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.

As someone said above 'All Dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes...' Maybe not Tyrion, maybe it's just you... Hell of a line and the first thing that sprung to mind for me when I saw this thread.

And don't you think that if Tywin suspected the dwarf wasn't his child it was absolutely, 100% explain the nature of their relationship? If Tywin suspects, it's still not in his best interests to reveal there is a Targ still alive and he is too proud to make it public that he has been cuckolded by an enemy. Tywin is stone-cold logical when it comes to the best interests of his house, so keep Tyrion close, and make his life miserable, while all the time pretending nothing has happened.

Like I say this theory explains a lot, and I'm also convinced young Griff is a mummer's dragon. Connington doesn't know this though. How do you tell one baby you've only seen from afar from another?

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Although this hasn't exactly proved Tyrion is a Targ (I've even seen a few people thinking maybe Jaime and Cersei might have been the Targs), think about it, it at least throws a shadow of a doubt on a few things. Even IF Tyrion is not a Targ, it might explain why Tywin always held his own SUSPICIONS about it.

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Although this hasn't exactly proved Tyrion is a Targ (I've even seen a few people thinking maybe Jaime and Cersei might have been the Targs), think about it, it at least throws a shadow of a doubt on a few things. Even IF Tyrion is not a Targ, it might explain why Tywin always held his own SUSPICIONS about it.

We have no proof of any such suspicions. Quite the contrary. Tywin sends Tyrion to King's Landing as acting Hand, "because you are my son".

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Although this hasn't exactly proved Tyrion is a Targ (I've even seen a few people thinking maybe Jaime and Cersei might have been the Targs), think about it, it at least throws a shadow of a doubt on a few things. Even IF Tyrion is not a Targ, it might explain why Tywin always held his own SUSPICIONS about it.

That is exactly what I mean. I don't see evidence of Tywin being cruel for the sake of it to anyone else. Ruthless, yes, strict, yes, but not a shit for the sake of it. Of course he could just have a thing about bullying Dwarfs. Plus one of the recurring themes is that people aren't black and white evil. He must have a motive for what happened with Tyrion's wife, and one of them could have been ensuring the Targaryan line died out. He seems to go out of way his to discourage Tyrion from breeding, and we found out when Tyrion killed him he had no objection to messing with whores himself.

Whether he is or isn't a Targ I would be willing to bet Tywin at least suspects he hasn't fathered him.

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He must have a motive for what happened with Tyrion's wife, and one of them could have been ensuring the Targaryan line died out. He seems to go out of way his to discourage Tyrion from breeding (...)

Only much later he pushes Tyrion to bed Sansa. And forbids him to go whoring.

Facts are not very kind to your theory.

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That is exactly what I mean. I don't see evidence of Tywin being cruel for the sake of it to anyone else. Ruthless, yes, strict, yes, but not a shit for the sake of it. Of course he could just have a thing about bullying Dwarfs. Plus one of the recurring themes is that people aren't black and white evil. He must have a motive for what happened with Tyrion's wife, and one of them could have been ensuring the Targaryan line died out. He seems to go out of way his to discourage Tyrion from breeding, and we found out when Tyrion killed him he had no objection to messing with whores himself.

Whether he is or isn't a Targ I would be willing to bet Tywin at least suspects he hasn't fathered him.

A big one is the fact that Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to inherit. Something like "you will never inherit Casterly Rock" - there's also all the talk of how Tywin was shamed with his father's lordship, and if he held suspicions over Tyrion being a bastard he never would have voiced it because it would have brought more embarrassment on his family.

The way he treats Tyrion is just so completely different from the way he treats anybody else in the series, I don't think it was just the whole whore thing either if he was really banging Shae. Plus I always liked the "you are no son of mine" when he dies.

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The way he treats Tyrion is just so completely different from the way he treats anybody else in the series

I think it isn't. See how he treats Cersei or Jaime or Joffrey, it is exactly the same.

Plus I always liked the "you are no son of mine" when he dies.

Oh, I see. And when he says "you are my son"?

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