[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing

[Ygritte]

A big one is the fact that Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to inherit. Something like "you will never inherit Casterly Rock" - there's also all the talk of how Tywin was shamed with his father's lordship, and if he held suspicions over Tyrion being a bastard he never would have voiced it because it would have brought more embarrassment on his family.

The way he treats Tyrion is just so completely different from the way he treats anybody else in the series, I don't think it was just the whole whore thing either if he was really banging Shae. Plus I always liked the "you are no son of mine" when he dies.

Well, and there's that "dwarfs are always bastards in their father's eyes" thing. I always took that to mean that Tywin, in addition to generally treating Tyrion badly, probably made some digs over the years about how there were never any dwarfs in his family and so on. Before this info, I assumed Tywin was just ashamed he'd fathered a dwarf and didn't want to admit that his precious Lannister line might have some flawed genes in it. With this new info, I think he might have had an actual suspicion, whether grounded in reality or not.

I don't read the "no son of mine" comment as being part of that though, oddly. I see it as more of a last-moment "disowning."

[I S**t Gold]

Only much later he pushes Tyrion to bed Sansa. And forbids him to go whoring.

Facts are not very kind to your theory.

Well it's hardly MY theory, more a comment on why I think whoever put this theory forward could be right.

In response though, I would say that by then Tywin is in a very different and much stickier situation. He's realizing he needs Tyrion at that stage because events are spiraling out of his control and Jaime is refusing to play ball. Tywin would put aside anything for the good of house Lannister. Plus he's not encouraging Tyrion to breed per se, but unless he takes her maidenhead the marriage is void by law. The 'marriage' is an exceptional opportunity to regain control of the kingdom and with Jaime out of the running Tyrion is his only option to make his plans to calm the North come to fruition. I imagine that Tywin would have considered every other possible solution before reverting to using Tyrion in this manner.

Plus forbidding him from whoring absolutely backs up MY theory...

I guess the overall point was that Tyrion being a bastard explains his father's behavior towards him from an early age more satisfyingly than the fact of him being a dwarf alone for me at least, and except for a plan that could be the key to preserving the glory of House Lannister, which I believe is absolutely Tywin's priority in everything he does, he is absolutely consistent in this.

Plus I was pretty amazed at the comment Tywin treats Cersei and Jaime exactly the same as he does Tyrion. I can't understand how you would say that. I'm not saying he's a great father to anyone, but the treatment of Tyrion makes his treatment of the twins pale in comparison. Would he ever have done what he did to Tyrion to either of the twins? Jaime could have had anything he asked of Tywin if he hadn't stuck to his guns and stuck with the Kingsguard, while Cersei had to start behaving like a complete mental before he started to come down on her... Both of them had plenty of chances in Tywin's eyes, Tyrion never had a chance.

[jack88]

Well, and there's that "dwarfs are always bastards in their father's eyes" thing. I always took that to mean that Tywin, in addition to generally treating Tyrion badly, probably made some digs over the years about how there were never any dwarfs in his family and so on. Before this info, I assumed Tywin was just ashamed he'd fathered a dwarf and didn't want to admit that his precious Lannister line might have some flawed genes in it. With this new info, I think he might have had an actual suspicion, whether grounded in reality or not.

I don't read the "no son of mine" comment as being part of that though, oddly. I see it as more of a last-moment "disowning."

I also thought that dwarfs and bastards line seemed a little bit fishy (I was thinking about it just then). I dunno, I've always felt Tywin irrationally hated Tyrion, and this irrationality is never displayed anywhere else in Tyrion's character. You're my son, you're no son of mine, seems like old Tywin couldn't make up his mind either. :) Either way, I thought the line about Aerys/Johanna was a pretty fun Easter egg.

[Ser Pistus]

Well it's hardly MY theory,

"Your" in plural. Sigh.

Plus I was pretty amazed at the comment Tywin treats Cersei and Jaime exactly the same as he does Tyrion. I can't understand how you would say that. I'm not saying he's a great father to anyone, but the treatment of Tyrion makes his treatment of the twins pale in comparison. Would he ever have done what he did to Tyrion to either of the twins?

None of them married against his will. None of them is a dwarf. Aside of that, he treats them all like slaves.

[jack88]

Plus I was pretty amazed at the comment Tywin treats Cersei and Jaime exactly the same as he does Tyrion. I can't understand how you would say that.

yeah that seemed pretty ridiculous. On one hand, he was apparently very kind to Cersei (perhaps secretly, whatever) in her memories, showing her secret smiles and promising he was gonna get the mighty dragon prince to marry her. On the other, he had all his guards rape Tyrion's "wife" in front of him (just a poor, clueless little girl) and then got Tyrion to rape her himself. This is really just one example, its kind of ridiculous to have to produce any more though.

[Ser Pistus]

About the opening post...

It would be pointless to make Cersei and Jaime secret Targaryens,

Yes, I agree :D

Tyrion hangs around Meereen and has to tame two dragons in the near future.

Yes, and what? Do you have to be a Targ to ride a dragon? There is no hint to this in the series, while GRRM said the opposite in an interview.

Also, it would make no sense to introduce Joanna as Aerys's true love, or the woman he desired above all others, if this never ever played out.

I see. So it made no sense to state that Lyanna was Robert's true love unless they have a secret child. I see.

Dany has an affair with Daario, so Aerys most likely shared his blankets with Joanna Lannister once or twice.

Crushing logic.

And in the end, there are Tyrion's dragon dreams, his mismatched eyes resembling those of Shiera Seastar, his platinum blond hair, and Tywin's suspicion that he was not his son.

He dreamed of dragons as a child. And what? He might have also dreamed about several other animals and such. So is he a secret child of most noble houses?

This whole theory is incredibly weak.

[Ser Pistus]

On one hand, he was apparently very kind to Cersei (perhaps secretly, whatever) in her memories, showing her secret smiles and promising he was gonna get the mighty dragon prince to marry her.

Does this sound like Tywin Lannister to you? Amazing.

[I S**t Gold]

He treats them all like slaves?

Not really. Jaime is the prime example. Jaime disappointed him by joining the Kingsguard yet he was free to do so. Jaime refused his offer to come back to the family a second time and was free to do so. Both of them had a fantastic standard of living and Jaime in particular was the apple of his eye originally, although this was soured by repeated slights...

Cersei WAS made to marry someone against her will but that's fairly standard for Westeros.

He doesn't even treat Tyrion like a slave. Tyrion has a full purse and the protection of his house but no more. Jaime in particular would have had anything he wanted from Tywin if he'd chosen a different path. The quite frankly evil thing he did with Tyrion's wife... well if you can name one thing that even comes close to that in his treatment of Cersei and Jaime then you have been reading a different book.

Does this sound like Tywin Lannister to you? Amazing.

Yes, it does. Tywin like all characters in the novels is complex. Plus it was in the book. He's not a warm person, but was devoted to their mother, which shows he is capable of real devotion.

[jack88]

He treats them all like slaves?

Not really. Jaime is the prime example. Jaime disappointed him by joining the Kingsguard yet he was free to do so. Jaime refused his offer to come back to the family a second time and was free to do so. Both of them had a fantastic standard of living and Jaime in particular was the apple of his eye originally, although this was soured by repeated slights...

Cersei WAS made to marry someone against her will but that's fairly standard for Westeros.

He doesn't even treat Tyrion like a slave. Tyrion has a full purse and the protection of his house but no more. Jaime in particular would have had anything he wanted from Tywin if he'd chosen a different path. The quite frankly evil thing he did with Tyrion's wife... well if you can name one thing that even comes close to that in his treatment of Cersei and Jaime then you have been reading a different book.

Yes, it does. Tywin like all characters in the novels is complex. Plus it was in the book. He's not a warm person, but was devoted to their mother, which shows he is capable of real devotion.

Yep, really, he dotes on the twins, and that scene with Cersei was straight out of the book. There are plenty of times Tywin shows kindness to the twins, Jaime was his pride and joy and Aerys' taking him into the Kingsguard was the last straw that had Tywin head back to Casterly Rock I believe. Even though he later sent Tyrion to counter Cersei and might have thought she was a useless ruler, she at least had happy memories of him growing up. Tywin has ALWAYS hated Tyrion. Saying he treated all of them the same is pretty ignorant.

[wolfeyes]

I think the ability to ride the dragons will depend on the ability to warg into them, requiring a powerful warg. This may well be a product of genetics. Perhaps it takes three wargs in the dragon to control them, including "dead" children of the forest ones.

One theory not proposed if indeed areys had first rights is that Jamie and cersi as fraternal twins could have different fathers. Defiantly a biological strech that GRRM could take, but doubtful.

[Ser Pistus]

Jaime refused his offer to come back to the family a second time and was free to do so.

Only Tywin disowned him for it. A gesture of true devotion, surely.

As for Cersei's recollections, she is raving mad and twists even her own memories, as was shown multiple times.

Anyway, sorry for interrupting. By no means was it my intention to rob you of the idea of Tywin Lannister, loving father, smiling secret smiles and whispering about gallant princes.

[Perrianne Lurie]

Lord Varys, on 12 July 2011 - 12:47 PM, said:

It would be pointless to make Cersei and Jaime secret Targaryens,

It would make Jaimie a kinslayer (both he and his brother would have slain their fathers), and would explain Cersei and Joffrey's sadism and insanity. I'm not saying that I think this is how it'll play out, just that it wouldn't be pointless. I don't think either of the twins will survive the winter.

[jack88]

One theory not proposed if indeed areys had first rights is that Jamie and cersi as fraternal twins could have different fathers. Defiantly a biological strech that GRRM could take, but doubtful.

Cersei definitely does seem Targ Crazy. Seems kind of hard to prove though, or at least, present to the reader in any believable manner. I like it though

[I S**t Gold]

Only Tywin disowned him for it. A gesture of true devotion, surely.

As for Cersei's recollections, she is raving mad and twists even her own memories, as was shown multiple times.

Anyway, sorry for interrupting. By no means was it my intention to rob you of the idea of Tywin Lannister, loving father, smiling secret smiles and whispering about gallant princes.

The point is that Tywin would have given Jaime everything and in his eyes Jaime basically said piss off! There was a reason for Jaime being disowned. Joining the Kingsguard meant Jaime was basically telling him he wasn't going to be his heir, so in Tywin's eyes Jaime had basically decided he wasn't going to be a Lannister. This hurt Tywin, Jaime was supposed to be his heir and was always his favourite. The disowning of Jaime would never have happened if Jaime hadn't chosen to 'disown' himself by sticking to the Kingsguard.

No-one is saying Tywin is a saint, I even said he was a bad father to Jaime and Cersei, but he wasn't unkind to them especially growing up.

I'm not 100% convinced on this theory myself, but I think there's a lot in the book to back it up. Tywin isn't all good or all bad, there's a reason in his head for everything he does, and generally a good reason. This is why he generally inspires respect in people, even those who hate him and everything he stands for.

There are no goodies or baddies in this book.

[Claireducky]

As I said before, Cersei and Jaime CANNOT be from the product of wedding night shenanigans by Aerys. Tywin and Joanna were married when Aerys was still PRINCE Aerys (before 262 AL), and Jaime and Cersei were not born til 266 AL. The timeline doesn't work, sorry.

I don't really like the idea of there being any more secret Targs (besides perhaps Jon), but if there are any, the evidence stacks pretty heavily against the twins being Targ.

[BloodRider]

This is my theory that I have, being a theory about Tyrion:

Tyrion is a dragon warg. Eventually he will be killed and warg into the younger brother dragon. Then he will kill Cerci.

That is my theory that is mine.

[Karayom]

After reading the first four books, I thought that the three heads of the dragon were Dany, Jon and Tyrion. There were a lot of clues with Tyrion already and I would be disappointed if all those turned out to be red herrings. In the latest book it was the A+J thing and I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed his resistance to grayscale even after having ingested all that foul water. Something else the three have in common is that their mothers died while birthing them. I wonder if this is something related to a prophecy or just another red herring.

The thing that bothers me about Jon being one of the three is that he's burnt his hand before. I don't recall Tyrion getting burned before, not even at the Blackwater battles, where he planned the whole thing with wildfire (another Targ clue?). Also I don't recall Jon having any dragon dreams. Well maybe he is AA and Dany is the PtwP, but then who will be the third head?

[Claireducky]

The thing that bothers me about Jon being one of the three is that he's burnt his hand before. I don't recall Tyrion getting burned before, not even at the Blackwater battles, where he planned the whole thing with wildfire (another Targ clue?). Also I don't recall Jon having any dragon dreams. Well maybe he is AA and Dany is the PtwP, but then who will be the third head?

You need to ignore the fire resistance thing. GRRM has clearly stated that Dany not being burned was a one-off thing and does not imply fire-resistance by the Targs. We have multiple cases of Targs in history dying from fire, Summerhall being the most notable one.

[Maia]

Only much later he pushes Tyrion to bed Sansa. And forbids him to go whoring.

Facts are not very kind to your theory.

Sansa's children would have been heirs to the North, though. Tywin told Tyrion that he'd never let him inherit the Rock... but he had always rewarded good service, so he gave Tyrion a chance at gaining another great lordship.

IMHO, it is quite significant that after Joffrey's murder Tywin went along with Cersei's shenanigans to fabricate Tyrion's conviction.

I mean, Tywin was a clever man and knew Tyrion's abilities (which is why he sent him to KL), he must have seen how improbable it was for Tyrion to personally and publicly serve Joffrey poisoned wine.

But Sansa and prospect of the North were gone and Tyrion had both expressed intention to contend for the Rock and had demonstrated that he might have chops to succeed. So, instead of decisively reigning in Cersei, Tywin sacrificed Tyrion, who was a proven asset at this point. This is very suggestive, IMHO.

[Wouter]

Sansa's children would have been heirs to the North, though. Tywin told Tyrion that he'd never let him inherit the Rock... but he had always rewarded good service, so he gave Tyrion a chance at gaining another great lordship.

IMHO, it is quite significant that after Joffrey's murder Tywin went along with Cersei's shenanigans to fabricate Tyrion's conviction.

I mean, Tywin was a clever man and knew Tyrion's abilities (which is why he sent him to KL), he must have seen how improbable it was for Tyrion to personally and publicly serve Joffrey poisoned wine.

But Sansa and prospect of the North were gone and Tyrion had both expressed intention to contend for the Rock and had demonstrated that he might have chops to succeed. So, instead of decisively reigning in Cersei, Tywin sacrificed Tyrion, who was a proven asset at this point. This is very suggestive, IMHO.

Very good points. I had never considered that particular angle of Tywin deciding to condemn Tyrion - Sansa was gone and with her disappearance, Tyrion as heir of Casterly Rock became a renewed possibility. It also puts a different spin on his insistence to get the Sansa-Tyrion marriage consummated - not to secure Winterfell for the Lannisters, but to make sure Tyrion would not be tempted anymore to go for Casterly Rock instead.

As for Tywin acknowledging that one time Tyrion is his son - he did it when he had great need of him. And, regardless of who his biological father is, Tyrion is Tywins son when it comes to things like the game of thrones, and his general intellect (as also indicated by Genna). However, note that Jon Snow is also very much Eddard's son in this sense, even while most people believe Eddard is "only" his uncle and foster father. But as the latter, he certainly left a large impression on Jon and Tywin did likewise with Tyrion, it seems, maybe in spite of his biological parentage.

Ser Pistus says the facts are not kind to this theory. Well, I think it's too early to talk about definite 'facts' but I would say the hints in the 5 books so far are really rather kind to the theory.