[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing

[Rarm]

Do we have a physical description of Joanna anywhere? If Tyrion or the twins are Targs then why are they blonde haired? Aerys had traditional Targ features, If he had fathered any of them, and say we assume Joanna wasn't a blonde, why would any of the three have the Lannister coloring? Now this is just something I was wondering, I don't remember if her looks were ever described. I know the hair color of the parents isn't always a definite for paternity of course but in GRRM's world most characters seem to favor a parent in looks [Cat and Ned's kids had their mom's looks, aside from Arya, The classic Baratheon Black hair, Lannister blondes etc. Most of the major houses have specific looks about them.

[Dragonfish]

Do we have a physical description of Joanna anywhere? If Tyrion or the twins are Targs then why are they blonde haired? Aerys had traditional Targ features, If he had fathered any of them, and say we assume Joanna wasn't a blonde, why would any of the three have the Lannister coloring? Now this is just something I was wondering, I don't remember if her looks were ever described. I know the hair color of the parents isn't always a definite for paternity of course but in GRRM's world most characters seem to favor a parent in looks [Cat and Ned's kids had their mom's looks, aside from Arya, The classic Baratheon Black hair, Lannister blondes etc. Most of the major houses have specific looks about them.

Joanna was a blonde. Jaime dreams of her in AFFC, and in that dream she has the same golden hair as the twins.

[Rarm]

Joanna was a blonde. Jaime dreams of her in AFFC, and in that dream she has the same golden hair as the twins.

I couldn't remember, thanks.

[JayDubya]

I'm starting to wonder if GRRM is just throwing random "connections" in just to distract us.

Ultimately, I find the idea that any of the Lannisters are secret Targaryens unlikely. Because Twyin Lannister is too proud and competent.

If Aerys "took liberties" with Joanna on his wedding night, there's no way someone as proud as Twyin is going to let the King have any opportunity to "visit" his wife in private in the future. And if, somehow, Aerys had forced the issue, there's no way Twyin would have continued to work for him. When the rebellion started, he would have gone to the rebel side immediately.

In addition, I always felt that third major POV in book 1 was Bran, not Tyrion. And if there were four major POVs, the fourth (to me) would be Arya. Tyrion is the fifth major POV, in my personal opinion.

When Bloodraven told Bran that he would fly, my first thought was 'Warg into a dragon? Cooooooool!"

[Grogsmash]

You need to ignore the fire resistance thing. GRRM has clearly stated that Dany not being burned was a one-off thing and does not imply fire-resistance by the Targs. We have multiple cases of Targs in history dying from fire, Summerhall being the most notable one.

The problem is, Dany has twice been shown to be immune to fire.

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me.

It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit.

Martin, George R.R. (2011). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five (Kindle Locations 20719-20720). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

I essentially agree with you that Jon being affected by fire means little though.

[Claireducky]

Do we have a physical description of Joanna anywhere? If Tyrion or the twins are Targs then why are they blonde haired? Aerys had traditional Targ features, If he had fathered any of them, and say we assume Joanna wasn't a blonde, why would any of the three have the Lannister coloring? Now this is just something I was wondering, I don't remember if her looks were ever described. I know the hair color of the parents isn't always a definite for paternity of course but in GRRM's world most characters seem to favor a parent in looks [Cat and Ned's kids had their mom's looks, aside from Arya, The classic Baratheon Black hair, Lannister blondes etc. Most of the major houses have specific looks about them.

Tyrion is not golden-haired like his siblings, he has hair so blonde it looks white. (According to Jon Snow in GoT)

[Steel_Wind]

"Then he saw the other one, waddling along half-hidden by his brother’s side. Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin’s brood and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother’s height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute’s squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white."

- Jon A Game of Thrones

"Jon was in no mood for anyone’s counsel. “What do you know about being a bastard?”

“All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes.”

“You are your mother’s trueborn son of Lannister.”

“Am I” the dwarf replied, sardonic. “Do tell my lord father. MY mother died birthing me, and he’s never been sure.”

- Jon A Game of Thrones

“Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are.” He favored Jon with a rueful grin. “Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs.” And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

- Jon A Game of Thrones

So hair color is enough in Westeros to prove Robert is not the father, and golden hair is enough to prove Joff, Tommen and Myrcella are Lannisters ... but the LACK of golden hair and the presence of white hair is not enough for us to question Tyrion? Despite all the other indications too? And despite the fact that the author of the book introduces us to Tyrion in this fashion from the get go?

And then add everything else, plus the plain fact is that we are STILL short a dragon without him.

The truth has been staring us in the face since the beginning. This is NOT fanboy inspired Deus Ex M coming only late in the tale. It's always been there. Accept it and move on.

[nategator]

It is far more likely at this point that Tyrion is a Lannister than a Targ.

Things may end up the other way, however, but calling it a concluded issue at this point is premature.

[Dragonfish]

So hair color is enough in Westeros to prove Robert is not the father, and golden hair is enough to prove Joff, Tommen and Myrcella are Lannisters ... but the LACK of golden hair and the presence of white hair is not enough for us to question Tyrion? Despite all the other indications too? And despite the fact that the author of the book introduces us to Tyrion in this fashion from the get go?

Tyrion's white-blonde hair is not a definitive indication of his paternity, because Tommen also has white-blonde hair despite being full-Lannister. However, I will admit that the theory has gotten stronger with the recent revelation that Aerys coveted Joanna.

And then add everything else, plus the plain fact is that we are STILL short a dragon without him.

I'm not sure what your point is here, are you talking about needing another Targ to ride a dragon? Because we already know that the "third head" doesn't need to be a Targ.

The truth has been staring us in the face since the beginning. This is NOT fanboy inspired Deus Ex M coming only late in the tale. It's always been there. Accept it and move on.

Look, the theory may be stronger now, but it's a bit presumptuous of you to state that we know the "truth" and that we should just "accept it an move on." You're really not doing yourself any favors, here.

Personally, I don't really like the theory that much simply because I think the "hidden Targ" plot device is overused, and because it makes Tyrion's story less powerful (killing your own father is more compelling than killing your second cousin). But admittedly, the fact that I dislike the theory doesn't mean that it doesn't have some good evidence to support it.

[Rarm]

Hmm this is kind of interesting. Admittedly, I wouldn't like the plot twist of Tyrion being a Targ at all, but if it'd there it's there. White hair doesn't jump out and say Targ though, Jon describes it as a blonde so light it was almost white, not the silvery color Targs are described as having. Blonde hair has a variant of shades from platinum to golden to dirty blonde.

[Seerow]

Random thought that I don't think has been brought up yet:

We know from Dany that Targaryens are pretty much immune to normal disease. We see Tyrion grabbed by a late stage greyscale victim and dragged into a river that is infected. When he comes out, he is clean, while Connington, who pulled him out, is infected.

Could this be a clue that Tyrion is a Targaryen in disguise, or is he just abnormally lucky?

[Rarm]

Random thought that I don't think has been brought up yet:

We know from Dany that Targaryens are pretty much immune to normal disease. We see Tyrion grabbed by a late stage greyscale victim and dragged into a river that is infected. When he comes out, he is clean, while Connington, who pulled him out, is infected.

Could this be a clue that Tyrion is a Targaryen in disguise, or is he just abnormally lucky?

It's mentioned that Targs have died of diseases in the books. Dany was remembering something Viserys had told her, not something she knew to be fact. That would have been a good argument though.

[Claireducky]

Tyrion's white-blonde hair is not a definitive indication of his paternity, because Tommen also has white-blonde hair despite being full-Lannister. However, I will admit that the theory has gotten stronger with the recent revelation that Aerys coveted Joanna.

I've wondered often if that mention of Tommen having white-blonde hair is a mistake in GoT.

Every other place his hair is mentioned, it is described as golden curls, same as Joffrey and Myrcella.

Jaime in ASoS: "He had Joffrey's golden curls and green eyes"

Jon in AFFC: "a crown nestled amongst his golden curls"

Cersei in AFFC: "put her arm around Tommen and kissed his golden curls" "she reached out and stroked his golden curls" "she smoothed his hair back, the soft golden curls that reminded her so much of Joff"

[Claireducky]

Were any Targs described as having very light blonde hair? I can't think of any.

First of all, GRRM isn't going to be so obvious as to call Tyrion's hair silver. What is the difference between white-blond hair and silver-gold hair, but semantics?

But here are the Targs that have blonde or gold in their hair description.

Maekar I, Egg's dad (Aery's Great-Grandfather), had blond hair so light it looked white, and his beard was silver with a hint of gold.

Maekar's son Daeron had sandy brown hair and a blond beard.

Baelor Breakspear's son Valarr had dark hair with a light streak. (The blood of all recent Targs contains Martell blood, as Daeron II was married to Myriah Martell)

Daemon Blackfyre had "silver-gold" hair. Although he was a bastard, he was pure Targ as the son of Aegon IV and Daena Targaryen.

Naerys, wife of Aegon IV, had silver gold hair.

Shiera Seastar, another of Aegon's Bastards, had silver-gold hair and mismatched eyes.

Daena, sister of Aegon IV (and rumored mistress) and wife of Baelor the Blessed, she had curly silver-gold hair.

Baelor the Blessed had long silver-gold hair

Rhaenyra had silver-gold hair which she wore in a braid.

[Steel_Wind]

I'm not sure what your point is here, are you talking about needing another Targ to ride a dragon? Because we already know that the "third head" doesn't need to be a Targ.

Uhm. How is it again that we know that?

As for liking or not liking the theory... while it is more powerful that Tyrion killed his Father, aren't we getting the benefit of that "more powerful theory" in the tale right now? Is the current Tyrion much like the old, or is he decidedly damaged, depressed and alcoholic? Do we expect him to just "snap out of it"?

Maybe, maybe not. A revelation like this would be immeasurable to Tyrion's self-esteem, however. It certainly explains this:

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

My liking or not liking the theory isn't that much different than many people's reaction. I do, however, think that the metaplot of the novel appears to be requiring it to be true at this stage.

The part I take great exception to is the suggestion that this is some nod to fanbois and a crackpot theory. There is a lot evidence for it, and that evidence is built into the story right from the word go. This is not a Johhny-come-lately theory. It has been present in the novels from the very start.

[Rarm]

First of all, GRRM isn't going to be so obvious as to call Tyrion's hair silver. What is the difference between white-blond hair and silver-gold hair, but semantics?

But here are the Targs that have blonde or gold in their hair description.

Maekar I, Egg's dad (Aery's Great-Grandfather), had blond hair so light it looked white, and his beard was silver with a hint of gold.

Maekar's son Daeron had sandy brown hair and a blond beard.

Baelor Breakspear's son Valarr had dark hair with a light streak. (The blood of all recent Targs contains Martell blood, as Daeron II was married to Myriah Martell)

Daemon Blackfyre had "silver-gold" hair. Although he was a bastard, he was pure Targ as the son of Aegon IV and Daena Targaryen.

Naerys, wife of Aegon IV, had silver gold hair.

Shiera Seastar, another of Aegon's Bastards, had silver-gold hair and mismatched eyes.

Daena, sister of Aegon IV (and rumored mistress) and wife of Baelor the Blessed, she had curly silver-gold hair.

Baelor the Blessed had long silver-gold hair

Rhaenyra had silver-gold hair which she wore in a braid.

True,That would be too easy I guess. And reading some more posts I think it's clear in the books that even though the Targs tend to have distinct features, they vary here and there too. Could also be said of the Lannisters though, I think The Shiera Seastar bit about the mismatched eyes is an even better argument than the hair color being whitish blonde. x__________x I might end up a believer in this by the end of the night.

[jack88]

I agree. Whether or not Tyrion is a Targ bastard, the actual suspicions have been there from the start. Compare this to Young Griff/Aegon, who has pretty much entirely come straight out of left field in Dance. I don't think any of us are saying Tyrion IS a Targ bastard (I think the whole hidden Targ thing is overdone, there are more noble houses instead of having everybody have hidden targ blood), but I am definitely saying there's evidence that he could possibly be, and evidence that Tywin might have thought so too or at least had doubts.

[laughing tree knight]

God, I hope not. If it turns out that Tyrion is yet ANOTHER secret Targaryen, I'll quit the series right then and there. Seriously: how many secret Targaryens have we had now? Three? Four? Way to cheapen the pathos of the dynasty's fall, Martin. And way to make Dany's character development and rise to power practically meaningless.

For the record, I think the "Aegon is alive!" plot twist is god-awful, probably the worst plot point Martin ever wrote. Yes, even worse than the Maggy the Frog prophecy, if you can believe it. It introduces a character who, if he's as important as he seems, should have been introduced at least two books earlier. It utterly ruins the tragedy of the sack of King's Landing--wasn't the whole point of the scene that NO ONE is safe when the high lords play their Game of Thrones? It lessens the impact of Dany's status as the last of the dragons and her determination to take back Westeros. Most importantly, it creates a lot of plot holes, the most important being why didn't Varys let Viserys and Dany know that Aegon was alive?

I could rant forever about this, but I won't.

1 you don't tell Viserrys for the same reason you don't tell him about Dorne. He can't be trusted he has no patience.

But if it really was Aegon why not send him to hide in Dorne? Why make Quyenten die for nothing sending around the world?

Beware the mummers dragon.

When you read that didn't that make you star to doubt Aegon

I mean maybe he thinks he's the real Aegon. Maybe connington does to.

What do we really know about how he escaped dragon stone?

[Steel_Wind]

I've wondered often if that mention of Tommen having white-blonde hair is a mistake in GoT.

Every other place his hair is mentioned, it is described as golden curls, same as Joffrey and Myrcella.

Jaime in ASoS: "He had Joffrey's golden curls and green eyes"

Jon in AFFC: "a crown nestled amongst his golden curls"

Cersei in AFFC: "put her arm around Tommen and kissed his golden curls" "she reached out and stroked his golden curls" "she smoothed his hair back, the soft golden curls that reminded her so much of Joff"

In ACoK, Varys describes Joff, Tommen and Myrcella with this: "So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister’s thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse."

In fairness to the hair debate, there is one other instance where Tyrion's hair is described, and Martin does not use the term "so blonde it was almost white". Instead, he says in ACoK: "Tyrion slipped on a bedrobe and roughed his thin flaxen hair with his fingers, all the more to look as if he had wakened from sleep."

Flaxen is in the thesaurus for a number of colors. Pale blonde, pale grey blonde, etc.. I don't think it is conclusive, but it does not appear to be a retcon, either, as GRRM did with Tommen.

[Claireducky]

In ACoK, Varys describes Joff, Tommen and Myrcella with this: "So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister’s thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse."

In fairness to the hair debate, there is one other instance where Tyrion's hair is described, and Martin does not use the term "so blonde it was almost white". Instead, he says in ACoK: "Tyrion slipped on a bedrobe and roughed his thin flaxen hair with his fingers, all the more to look as if he had wakened from sleep."

Flaxen is in the thesaurus for a number of colors. Pale blonde, pale grey blonde, etc.. I don't think it is conclusive, but it does not appear to be a retcon, either, as GRRM did with Tommen.

Thank you for this info, I hadn't seen the flaxen mention before, and I forgot about Varys' statement. I am fairly sure now that Tommen's hair color was a retcon.