[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing

[Dragonfish]

Uhm. How is it again that we know that?

Martin told us.

"Martin has stated that Rhaenys is definitely dead, but also that the three heads need not be Targaryens."

The actual SSM has Martin saying that the third head need not be a Targ, though at the moment I'm having trouble finding that one.

As for liking or not liking the theory... while it is more powerful that Tyrion killed his Father, aren't we getting the benefit of that "more powerful theory" in the tale right now?

What I'm saying is that Tyrion turning out to be a Targ will completely ruin this storyline in retrospect. Tyrion murdering his father and mistress in a fit of jealousy and bitterness is Shakespearean; if it turns out that the man was not his father all along, then that just ruins the event's potency, IMO.

Is the current Tyrion much like the old, or is he decidedly damaged, depressed and alcoholic? Do we expect him to just "snap out of it"?

I don't think the only way for Tyrion to heal is to find out that his father was not his father. In fact, Tyrion doesn't seem to be that bothered by what he did to Tywin; he seems to be more concerned with what Tywin forced him to do to Tysha. Finding out his "true" parentage wouldn't really fix his years of embitterment, IMO.

My liking or not liking the theory isn't that much different than many people's reaction. I do, however, think that the metaplot of the novel appears to be requiring it to be true at this stage.

I'm not sure what you mean by "metaplot." Could you explain this, please?

The part I take great exception to is the suggestion that this is some nod to fanbois and a crackpot theory. There is a lot evidence for it, and that evidence is built into the story right from the word go. This is not a Johhny-come-lately theory. It has been present in the novels from the very start.

Fair enough. However, I do think it's important to note that many people decrying the theory as "fanboyish" do so because they believe it would be a terrible plot twist, adding yet another hidden Targ and ruining the Shakespearean ending to Tyrion's story in ASoS. I'll go on believing this even if it turns out to be true, unless Martin somehow manages to make it compelling, which I doubt.

[Claireducky]

Fair enough. However, I do think it's important to note that many people decrying the theory as "fanboyish" do so because they believe it would be a terrible plot twist, adding yet another hidden Targ and ruining the Shakespearean ending to Tyrion's story in ASoS. I'll go on believing this even if it turns out to be true, unless Martin somehow manages to make it compelling, which I doubt.

I think that's part of the irony of the whole thing, to be honest. We're given a setup, where the Targs are supposed to be all died out but these two. But then as we go on, we find that to not be the case at all-- everything is coming up Targ. Aemon, Aegon, Bloodraven and now maybe Jon and Tyrion. If learning about Robert's bastards (and before that, Aegon the Unworthy's Bastards) taught us anything, is that Kings can get around-- We KNOW that Rhaegar did, why else take Lyanna when he was already married? Why should it be any surprise that Aerys did, as well?

[Seerow]

What I'm saying is that Tyrion turning out to be a Targ will completely ruin this storyline in retrospect. Tyrion murdering his father and mistress in a fit of jealousy and bitterness is Shakespearean; if it turns out that the man was not his father all along, then that just ruins the event's potency, IMO.

While I'm not sure if I like Tyrion as a Targ or not, I disagree that him being one would ruin that storyline. Fact is, regardless of blood, Tywin is the man Tyrion looked up to and considered his father all his life. All of their interactions from Tyrion's birth to Tywin's death remain the same. Blood runs strong, but it isn't the end all be all. Even if Aerys was Tyrion's biological father, Tywin is the father that Tyrion knew.

[Dragonfish]

While I'm not sure if I like Tyrion as a Targ or not, I disagree that him being one would ruin that storyline. Fact is, regardless of blood, Tywin is the man Tyrion looked up to and considered his father all his life. All of their interactions from Tyrion's birth to Tywin's death remain the same. Blood runs strong, but it isn't the end all be all. Even if Aerys was Tyrion's biological father, Tywin is the father that Tyrion knew.

Tywin spends his whole life treating Tyrion like crap because he can't accept that someone like him could be born to a Lannister. However, what Tywin doesn't realize is that he and Tyrion are a lot alike. The son he despises the most is, ironically, the son who's most like him. Tyrion is Tywin writ small. I absolutely believe that this storyline would be less compelling if Tyrion turned out not to be his son.

[Seerow]

Tywin spends his whole life treating Tyrion like crap because he can't accept that someone like him could be born to a Lannister. However, what Tywin doesn't realize is that he and Tyrion are a lot alike. The son he despises the most is, ironically, the son who's most like him. Tyrion is Tywin writ small. I absolutely believe that this storyline would be less compelling if Tyrion turned out not to be his son.

It really calls into question Nature vs Nurture, but if you fall on the nurture side of that debate, it's not hard to see it still working out the same. Tyrion doesn't need to be Tywin's blood to be the child most like him. Really, when his competition are Cercei and Jaime, it's not even all that had to do.

The only change would be that Tywin was vindicated in not believing Tyrion was his, and Tyrion doesn't have a Kinslayer curse (assuming said curse is more than superstition). It doesn't really change the dynamic enough to kill the relationship for me.

[Dragonfish]

It really calls into question Nature vs Nurture, but if you fall on the nurture side of that debate, it's not hard to see it still working out the same. Tyrion doesn't need to be Tywin's blood to be the child most like him. Really, when his competition are Cercei and Jaime, it's not even all that had to do.

I'm not saying that Tyrion is like Tywin because he's his biological son, I'm saying the irony and tragedy is stronger if Tyrion is not only Tywin's actual son, but also the son who's most like him.

The only change would be that Tywin was vindicated in not believing Tyrion was his,

This pretty much gets to the heart of it for me. Tywin would basically be proved right if Tyrion was not his son, but I think it's more powerful if Tywin was simply in denial about the fact that Tyrion is him writ small, and that denial ultimately led to his own downfall. Just makes for a more compelling story, IMO.

[Jon Connington's Return]

I don't know if it's been brought up, but there is no way that Tywin and Joanna had an open relationship or anything. It's been emphasized how much Tywin loved Joanna and that something changed in him when she died. Apparently he used to smile and stopped smiling after her death. I took that to mean that basically he ceased feeling all joy, and he hates Tyrion not just because he is a dwarf but because he "killed" the true love of his life.

Now, to me, when a man like Tywin Lannister loves a woman that much, I'm pretty inclined to think that Joanna also loved Tywin very much so. After all, she made him tremendously happy it seems. This is why I think it is pretty implausible she ever had sex with Aerys. That, and you don't fuck a man like Tywin Lannister's wife and get away with it. I think if that ever actually happened, Tywin immediately declares for Robert and goes out of his way to kill as many Targaryen men as possible and would try to kill Aerys himself. Since none of this happened, I highly doubt that Aerys and Joanna ever had sex despite his apparent lust for her.

Tyrion's character would be destroyed if he was Aery's son... That would suck.

[Reyne]

I don't think Tyrion is a Targaryen. With that said, it could plausibly occur that Aerys raped Joanna, and she was too afraid to tell (Aerys was the king, after all, and there was still a while before Robert's Rebellion.) And then Joanna died birthing Tyrion, so she couldn't tell later

[JoeMo]

I have to say one of the things GRRM is great at is giving us glimpses down rabbitholes that we're never intended to go down. It seems like there are million different moments in the series where you think you see how certain seemingly unconnected events or circumstances are about to come together. And if this were Harry Potter or Star Wars or any other typical "hero's journey" type story, you'd be right. But then something happens to totally shatter the thing you thought he was setting up.

I think Tyrion being a Targaryen is one of those rabbitholes. Would be kinda cool on one level... but it's exactly the type of thing to expect from a typical fantasy story, and for that reason I don't think it will be used. GRRM's gone out of his way to try and make the story as "real" he can (except all the dragons and magic and such), and I think that placing that role on one of the main characters we've followed from the very beginning would elevate him to an unrealistic hero archetype, instead of just portraying him as a one of the many mortal men we've followed who could die at any moment.

As much as I thought the Aegon thing came out of nowhere and was a bit cheap, at least it's fairly sensible, in that it was clearly a known stratagem to switch important babies when they might be in peril. As evidenced by Jon Snow's actions with Mance's baby, and how Sam was just able to deduce that it had happened, without even being told.

[I S**t Gold]

Now, to me, when a man like Tywin Lannister loves a woman that much, I'm pretty inclined to think that Joanna also loved Tywin very much so. After all, she made him tremendously happy it seems. This is why I think it is pretty implausible she ever had sex with Aerys. That, and you don't fuck a man like Tywin Lannister's wife and get away with it.

I dunno. We don't have any real proof of Joanna's character aside from the devotion she seemed to inspire in the twins and Tywin and therefore their views can be considered 'rose-tinted' it seems to me.

I can't think of many examples among the nobility in Westeros who married for love, if any. I know in some cases the relationships grew strong over time (Ned and Catelyn) but the reason they married was duty and not love. I would say the culture of Westeros gives us more reason to think Tywin and Joanna married because it was expected of them.

The twins also got away with screwing behind his back for many years. I would say Tywin is very, very focused on his duty as head as house and as a result he often doesn't see what's going on under his nose. If Joanna loved Aerys and was feeling neglected, it's not an impossible state of affairs to think she succumbed.

[Summer]

That said! I think there's definitely room for saying that Joanna may have been raped by Aerys-and perhaps even beaten while pregnant. Aerys was pretty damn twisted. What if, for example, Tywin allowed her to go, and she came back shaken-perhaps with the baby damaged by some of the treatment?

This could simply be about pointing to why Tywin had little qualms about sending the Mountain to kill off the last Targs, about his son killing of the Aerys etc... - his desire for vengeance at what Aerys had done to his wife )added to his hunger for power and choice of sides in the Rebellion)... It seems to me like Tywin is not one to forget.

If not, I for one would not have a problem with Tyrion being the blood of dragons. I feel like I've always known that he would end up on Dany side and his knowledge love of Dragons is something that I've been looking forward too. Tyrion, Jon & Dany all being dragons wouldn't be that far fetched - these all play a a significant role in this story and have had enough seeds of suspicious parentage planted over the course of the 5 books...

You have to love the way Selmy stops mid sentence though.. Damn you GRRM, sometime you do make me want to pull my hair out!

[Jon Connington's Return]

I dunno. We don't have any real proof of Joanna's character aside from the devotion she seemed to inspire in the twins and Tywin and therefore their views can be considered 'rose-tinted' it seems to me.

I can't think of many examples among the nobility in Westeros who married for love, if any. I know in some cases the relationships grew strong over time (Ned and Catelyn) but the reason they married was duty and not love. I would say the culture of Westeros gives us more reason to think Tywin and Joanna married because it was expected of them.

The twins also got away with screwing behind his back for many years. I would say Tywin is very, very focused on his duty as head as house and as a result he often doesn't see what's going on under his nose. If Joanna loved Aerys and was feeling neglected, it's not an impossible state of affairs to think she succumbed.

Well, we know for a fact that Joanna was the only person Tywin loved. We know he changed greatly at her death.

I don't think it was a duty marriage. They are cousins, Joanna was already a Lannister. There is nothing that stands to be gained, no alliances, no new lands, etc. So I think they probably really loved each other.

[Regina]

I've been a big fan of A+J=J&C since AFFC's release. Back then, I think I was one of about a dozen people who liked the idea, so I'm glad it's growing on people, lol. These are my notes on the topic from the first four books, any page references are to the American hardcovers.

Background:

Aerys

I think we'll all agree Aerys was mad, and after Jaime's POV in Feast in which he remembers guarding the door as Aerys attacked his sister-wife, Rhaella, I think it's safe to say Aerys was a rapist, as well. We also know Aerys was jealous of Tywin, as exhibited by what he does to Ser Ilyn Payne (having his tongue ripped out for saying Tywin, not Aerys, ruled Westeros). So I would consider it within character for Aerys to take out his frustration regarding Tywin by attacking his wife.

Tywin

As a young man, Tywin was determined to bring House Lannister back to it's former glory. A marriage alliance to another powerful house would certainly have been of use, but instead he marries his own cousin. We're told he loved Joanna deeply. But as Tywin was hardly known for his soft heart, is this reason enough for him to marry her and pass up the chance to add to the power of his house? I submit that it's very conveinient that he married his own cousin. This way, the twins can have a blatenly Lannister appearance, even if Tywin isn't the father.

The Twins

They are described as extremely beautiful, and are in an incestous relationship. They repeatedly wish they could marry brother to sister and rule together "just like the Targaryens."

Quotes of interest

Regarding Jaime:

The very first time we "see" Jaime is through Jon's eyes, at the feast of Winterfell. "He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak." Jaime is almost always in Kingsguard white or Lannister gold and crimson, but for his introduction he is in Targ colors. Furthermore, Jon's thought on Jaime is that "This is what a king should look like..." (I, 42).

"He's mine now, not Tywin's." says Aerys when speaking of Jaime (III, 502)

"You are not my son." says Tywin to Jaime, after an argument (III, 704)

"...but Tyrion is Tywins's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year." Lady Genna tells Jaime (IV, 503)

Regarding Cersei:

During the Battle of the Blackwater, Sansa describes Cersei as having "Eyes of wildfire," (II, 637)

"Let all King's Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies." Cersei to Jaime, regarding burning the Tower of the Hand

"Now you sound like Aerys." Jaime's response. (IV, 175)

"The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve." Cersei, during the burnign of the TotH (IV, 184)

"The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him."

"Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat, Jaime remembered, studying his sister's smile." some of Jaime's thoughts as to Cersei's demeanor during the burning of TotH (both from IV, 232)

"His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glarier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted." more of Jaime's thoughts about Cersei (IV, 234)

"Lord Hallyne might suit. He would not be the first pyromancer to serve as King's Hand." Cersei, following in Aerys' footsteps again. (IV, 234)

Regarding Joffrey:

When the pyromancers offer to perform a demonstration of their powers for Joffrey, Tyrion thinks that "Joff's fondness for making men fight to the death was trial enough, he had no intention of allowing the boy to taste the possibilites of burning them alive." (II, 236)

When Tyrion stops Joffrey from having his guards strip and beat Sansa, Joffrey tells his uncle that "The king can do as he likes." to which Tyrion responds "Aerys Targaryen did as he liked. Has your mother ever told you what happened to him?" (II, 367)

Oberyn Martell tells Tyrion that they first met when "...your lord father was Hand to a different king..." "Not so different as you might think," reflected Tyrion. (III, 433)

"Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third." Tyrions's response to Tywin's statement that Joffrey was in danger of becoming Robert the Second (III, 592).

Regarding Tommen:

Bronn asks Tyrion "Are you certain he's [Tommen's] a Lannister?" to which Tyrion responds "I'm certain of nothing but winter and battle..." (II, 478)

Regarding Kingslaying vs. Kinslaying (of interest in case it turns out that Jaime is a kinslayer as well as a kingslayer for killing Aerys):

Renly has a plump fool dressed as Jaime, and a dwarf portraying Tyrion. When Reny asks the the fool why he would attack the dwarf, he responds "Why, Your Grace, I'm the Kinslayer." [emphasis mine] (II, 263)

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon. "Aye," she [Ygritte] said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing." Jon and Ygritte, talking about Bael the Bard (II, 561)

[Craig Helman]

i don't see much of a reason for Selmy to bring up the Joanna/Aerys connection if Tyrion wasn't a Targ.

and in my mind there is very little chance that Young Griff is for real. If anyone was ever a mummer's dragon, it's him.

I completely agree with the "metagame" post a few pages back in it's entirety.

it sets up to perfectly for the three heads to be Jon, Dany and Tyrion.

[dpop]

This could simplify things a lot. Dragon's blood to tame the dragons and use the horn. I'm sure 'claim the horn with blood' means to smear some dragon blood (i.e. Targaryen or other pure-valyrian blood) on the horn before letting some fool blow it.

There has to be an explanation for the valyrian incest, and it has to have a connection to the dragons and to blood magic.

Then there are Tyrion's issues with his father and the patricide. If Tywin was not his true father then slaying him did not mean that much. And if Varys knew about his heritage, this explains why he would groom him to kill Tywin and why he is sending him to Daenerys. She would be his half-sister, after all.

It would be also rather funny and in accordance with the other 'misplaced son', i.e. Jon Snow.

Tyrion is the son most similar to Tyrion character-wise, but they don't look that much alike, do they, so this is really possible. Especially as Aerys's incest-damaged seed would be a better candidate for the stuff dwarfs are made of, if you ask me (at least in this fantasy setting with magical genes). Genna not knowing about that proves nothing. She and Tywin were not particularly close, and Joanna and Aerys would have had their affair in KL, nor at Casterly Rock.

But this does mean that I like this theory.

I agree that the dragonriders have to have some Targ blood connection to enable them to ride. I think it was voiced pretty spot on through Quenten's experience. He had the right idea but didn't necessarily have enough Targ blood in him to pull it off. We also get a bit of a hint through Brown Ben Plumm's association with the dragons. Drogon being the largest and unwieldiest accepts Dany who is full blooded Targ, meaning both her father and mother were Targs. Just a thought, but maybe since the other two dragons seem weaker in comparison to Drogon, riders of less blood association would be acceptable riders, i.e. half blooded Targs.

On another note, it's interesting to see that Tyrion doesn't seem to have any trace of Greyscale despite being plunged underwater, while Jon Connington has started to mark his life's end in two years or so. Dany herself made a comment about never getting sick. Irrevocable truth? No, but just another tally towards confirming the possibility of Tyrion=Targ.

[nikkodemus]

It makes a lot of sense but I deny it. To much cheese for Martin. A bastard AA, a bastard third Targ, and there's a host of other bastard scattered through ASOIF. All the snad snakes. How much bastards can we get in one series? Somebody keeping count?

Too cheap for GRRM. Is everyone a fake child?

[Dragonfish]

On another note, it's interesting to see that Tyrion doesn't seem to have any trace of Greyscale despite being plunged underwater, while Jon Connington has started to mark his life's end in two years or so. Dany herself made a comment about never getting sick. Irrevocable truth? No, but just another tally towards confirming the possibility of Tyrion=Targ.

I can't remember, but were we given any indication before this book that Targs are more resistant to disease? The reason I ask is that the whole thing seemed pretty tacked on in this book. Not to mention that it seems inconsistent with what we know about previous Targs who've died of disease.

[Jon Connington's Return]

Tywin

As a young man, Tywin was determined to bring House Lannister back to it's former glory. A marriage alliance to another powerful house would certainly have been of use, but instead he marries his own cousin. We're told he loved Joanna deeply. But as Tywin was hardly known for his soft heart, is this reason enough for him to marry her and pass up the chance to add to the power of his house? I submit that it's very conveinient that he married his own cousin. This way, the twins can have a blatenly Lannister appearance, even if Tywin isn't the father.

Tywin's heart only turned to ice after Joanna died. Beforehand, I don't think he was known for cruelty or ruthlessness as much. Sure, he killed the Tarbecks and Castemeres but that was to solidify Lannister power after his weak father let them piss all over him. I don't think Lord Rickard or Eddard Stark would hesitate to march on the Boltons or the Manderlys if either renounced Stark rule and opposed them. The Tywin we know's atrocities were all committed after Joanna died.

[Visenya Vhagar]

I'm not opposed to the idea that either Cersei and Jaime or Tyrion are Aerys's bastards.

Tywin clearly loved Joanna, and I think that it's likely that Joanna loved Tywin. They were cousins; there was no advantage to be gained from their marrying. It's likely that Tywin would have taken drastic actions if his wife was raped by anyone, including the king--and if Joanna loved her husband, she had a real stake in keeping him from finding out.

Regardless of whatever happened at the bedding to make Tywin angry, he clearly continued to serve under Aerys and even try to betroth his daughter to Aerys's son. It was only after Aerys rejected the proposal that Tywin turned sour. I'm not sure why Tywin apparently forgave whatever liberties Aerys took but not the things Aerys said. On some level, it doesn't matter.

The king is the king. I'm sure that Joanna was in his presence at least once after she married Tywin. He may have raped her. He may not have. If he did, she may or may not have gotten pregnant.

However, I don't know that Tyrion dreaming of dragons is indicative of everything, and quibbling about hair color strikes me as just silly. Yes, the dark hair vs. blond hair was what gave Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen away, but we're talking different shades of blond. As far as dragons go... Tyrion has been thoroughly unloved for his entire life. Maybe he dreams of dragons because he's a Targaryen--but maybe he just dreams of dragons because he dreams of dragons. Jon is much more likely to be half-Targaryen than Tyrion, and we have no indication that Jon does dream of dragons.

[Zac Hobson]

I like the theory - it explains a lot.

If true, though, how could anyone possibly know at this late dare who Tyrion's real father is? Barristan Selwy's memory is hardly specific enough to convince anyone, Joanna and Aerys are dead, and Tywin (if he knew or suspected) is also dead. OK, Tyrion mets up with Dany and finds out he has a previously unknown ability to fly dragons, but that's hardly proof of anything.

Tyrion on the Iron Throne is an appealing way to end the story -- but I have a hard time seeing how it comes to pass.