[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing

[Matarreyes]

How so?

Regardless of whether Tyrion was fathered by Aerys, he was raised by Tywin. He lived his whole life as a Lannister. And he lived it in the shadow of his father's disapproval and resentment. These things don't change if he was a Targaryen by blood all along. His character is still formed by Tywin, regardless of his blood. He's still Tywin writ small.

Tyrion is not defined by having been raised by Tywin. He is defined by having been a constant dissapointment to his father. He clearly wanted to please him and be noticed by him as a boy, before he learned that nothing he did would accomplish that. If he were to learn that Tywin was not his father, the stigma of personal inadequacy would dissapear entirely because he would know the reason for his mistreatment did not lie with him, and know that Tywin´s acknowledgement was always outside of his reach. It would be liberating and it would also wash away a big part of the guilt at having killed him.

If you still can´t see it, imagine the opposite extreme: Jaime learning that Aerys was his father. You can´t really argue that since he had lived his entire life thinking of him a the King and not as a father he would not be deeply horrified at the revelation.

[Wouter]

How so?

Regardless of whether Tyrion was fathered by Aerys, he was raised by Tywin. He lived his whole life as a Lannister. And he lived it in the shadow of his father's disapproval and resentment. These things don't change if he was a Targaryen by blood all along. His character is still formed by Tywin, regardless of his blood. He's still Tywin writ small.

Same as with Jon and Eddard. Jon is Eddard's son - even if he isn't.

Martin has now put enough hints in the books that the Tyrion = Aerys bastard son theory is no crackpot theory, but possibly true. People seem to have trouble acknowledging even the possibility that this may be true because they really dislike Tyrion not being Tywin's son, but IMO this makes the theory more likely to be true. That it would conveniently mean Tyrion is not a kinslayer after all (as long as he doesn't kill Jaime or Cersei, who are still halfbrother and halfsister even if the theory is true) is actually handy for what seems to be Martin's favourite character.

[bronnxtyrion]

To me the Tywin/Tyrion interations (Two people who thinks so similar sitting and slighting each other) would lose all value if they are not true father and son. I know that people does not want Tyrion to be a kinslayer. But if they are not real father-son what Tyrion did was much worse than kinslaying. Also I tend to consider Tyrion as the successor of Lann the clever and Bran as that of Brandon the builder. For that Tyrion has to be a lannister. But Jaime-Cercei being Aerys children is possible...Especially the scene with Joanna crying in Jaime's dream.

[Wouter]

There is no doubt whatsoever that Tyrion is a Lannister, because his mother most surely is one. He doesn't have to be a double Lannister for that; none of the Stark kids is a double Stark, either.

Joanna was IMO crying because of what has become of her children (which are now literally fighting each other), not because of who the parents were.

[bronnxtyrion]

In westeros lineage counted through the father's line not the mothers. Tyrion is either a Targaryan or a Lannister but not both. This is what Joanna told in the dream.

“We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great

knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and

brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.”

It to some extent imply that Tywin dreamt of things that he cannot have. If Cersei and Jaime were truly his then those dreams were very much within his grasp.

[Wouter]

In westeros lineage counted through the father's line not the mothers. Tyrion is either a Targaryan or a Lannister but not both. This is what Joanna told in the dream.

We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great

knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and

brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.

It to some extent imply that Tywin dreamt of things that he cannot have. If Cersei and Jaime were truly his then those dreams were very much within his grasp.

Tywin's son is not a great knight (he is a robber knight instead), and Cersei is not exactly the dream queen that Tywin had in mind with that description, I'd wager. Those dreams were within his grasp, but his son and daughter turned them into a mockery.

Westerosi beliefs are often just that, beliefs. As if the women don't pass on genetic material. By this reasoning, Jon is no Stark at all and has no Stark characteristics if R+L=J is correct (which it 99% certain is). And Sansa and Robb and Bran and Rickon are no Tullys at all, despite their coloring and Sansa being Catelyn mk2 to the point LF transfers his obsession from mother to daughter.

[Swordswench]

Tywin's son is not a great knight (he is a robber knight instead), and Cersei is not exactly the dream queen that Tywin had in mind with that description, I'd wager. Those dreams were within his grasp, but his son and daughter turned them into a mockery.

Westerosi beliefs are often just that, beliefs. As if the women don't pass on genetic material. By this reasoning, Jon is no Stark at all and has no Stark characteristics if R+L=J is correct (which it 99% certain is). And Sansa and Robb and Bran and Rickon are no Tullys at all, despite their coloring and Sansa being Catelyn mk2 to the point LF transfers his obsession from mother to daughter.

Exdactly. How could Robb have called the Tully bannermen if there wasn't at least the acknowledgement of the distaff side being part of the family? No one would bother with arranging marriages between noble houses if there was not acknowledgement of the family line of the mothers whatsoever.

[Edited for a lame mix-up on my part between baby Aegon's mother's lineage and Dany's]

[Wouter]

And by extension Daenerys isn't a Targaryen with the blood of the dragon in her, either...

Well, actually she would be as both her father and mother were Targaryens. Assuming her parents are as said, which is starting to become a somewhat unsafe assumption in those books. Still, it's implied she was the result of Aerys raping Rhaenys that time when Jaime wanted to intervene.

Something Tyrion, Dany and Jon share in common is that all 3 mothers apparently died in childbirth (or as a result of it, somewhat later) and in all 3 cases the relationship between mother and father was either very strained (Rhaenys and Aerys) or otherwise unconventional (Lyanna and Rhaegar, possibly Joanna and Aerys). All 3 cases could be rape to some extent, allthough I doubt it in the case of Lyanna and I'm not certain if Joanna would have been.

[mormont]

Tyrion is not defined by having been raised by Tywin. He is defined by having been a constant dissapointment to his father. He clearly wanted to please him and be noticed by him as a boy, before he learned that nothing he did would accomplish that. If he were to learn that Tywin was not his father, the stigma of personal inadequacy would dissapear entirely because he would know the reason for his mistreatment did not lie with him, and know that Tywin´s acknowledgement was always outside of his reach. It would be liberating and it would also wash away a big part of the guilt at having killed him.

If you still can´t see it, imagine the opposite extreme: Jaime learning that Aerys was his father. You can´t really argue that since he had lived his entire life thinking of him a the King and not as a father he would not be deeply horrified at the revelation.

I can see it: I'm just not convinced by it. By which I mean, it's not necessarily true that if Tyrion was fathered by Aerys, then all of his character development is rendered meaningless. Of course it would take on a very different perspective: but that's not the same at all.

If it is true (I'm not sold yet, but I think it bears some consideration), I'd be willing to bet that Tywin was completely oblivious. Hence, Tyrion would still have been a disappointment to him. And if it is true, then of course Tyrion was fathered by his father's friend and greatest rival, a man who ruled the Seven Kingdoms but still felt eclipsed by Tywin. That stigma of personal inadequacy, those comparisons to his father, they would be given an entirely different angle by this revelation - but would they necessarily 'disappear entirely'?

[bronnxtyrion]

I understand that Tyrion can inherit the Lannister characteristics(i.e the quick wits) from his mother. But then it will not fit in with the story to call him the successor of Lann the Clever. For thousands of years the Lannister characteristics have been passed down through the male line culminating in a brilliant leader like Tywin.If the genetics of westeros were the same as in our world then the Lannisters on now should not have any resemblence with the original Lann. As far as R+L = J is concerned I know the evidence is overwhelming but I don't really like it. I think it is too much plot armor that Jon can inherit the abilities of both his father(that is assuming he will be a dragon rider) and his mother(the warging ability). I would hate the same thing to happen in Tyrion's case too. Besides Tyrion is best using his brain and planning/plotting stuff rather than doing something something physical.

[Dragons Dancing]

I'm not buying this Tyrion=Targ theory for several reasons, but primarily because there are no hints that Joanna likely carried on a long term affair with anyone much less Aerys.

Maybe (as Selmy thought) Aerys did have sex with Joanna on her wedding night by claiming King's rights, but to think that he is still sexing her 5 or 6 years later, no.

The Tywin described in the book would never accept being cuckholded by any man. He is prideful to the extreme and ultra sensitive to shame because his father acted shamefully with his paramore.

Cersei was old enough to be described as remarking how ugly Tyrion was when he was born and painfully tweaking his penis. So, to make this theory true, Joanna and Aerys had to have been getting it on long after her marriage. For me this theory is a dead end.

If Tyrion rides a dragon, it will be because Martin wants him to ride a dragon and he can do this because he has said that you do not have to be a Targ to ride a dragon.

[Wouter]

But I think this merging of "ice and fire" on the one hand (Jon, warg and probably future dragonrider) and Lannister cleverness and dragonexpert on the other hand (Tyrion) is exactly the point why Tyrion and Jon get such a shitload of chapters for them. They are 2 of the 3 main characters (in terms of pages of text at least), and I think only Bran will come close in importance to them (other than Dany, the 3rd main).

[The Non-Human]

Regarding what Joannah said to Jaime in the dream:

Tywin wanted a son who would be a knight, and a daughter who would be queen. Now, Jaime identifies himself more with the Smiling kight, than with Arthur Dayne, who was a 'true' knight. In a similar vein, Cercei is queen, but she wants power for herself, not for the people. As Varys says, kingship is a duty to the people, not a right. In that sense, Cersei is not a 'true' desirable queen.

I believe thats what Joannah meant. They fulfilled the letter, but not the spirit, of what Tywin wanted for his sons.

And no, Tyrion is not a targaryen. Or so I pray.

[bronnxtyrion]

Being a dragonexpert is completely different from being dragon rider and it is not necessarily a Targ quality. Tyrion has been shown to have the ability to decipher the truth from contradicting accounts written hundreds of years ago. Eg:- the case about who tried to kill what dragon in that argument with Haldon, how many years did Viserys rule in the argument with Oberyn, seeing through the commonly accepted notion of Baelor as a holy man to him being a very ineffectual ruler, the case with dragon's weak points. These are all Lannister brilliance and not Targ abilities. Also to be noted is that Tyrion does not have anything going right for him other than a genius brain (His legs are weak, his body is small etc). The whole point of his character is to show how he succeeds with so little.

[Wouter]

Tyrion also had a lot of gold and his name as a Lannister at his disposal. He notices in ADWD, where he has to go without either, that this makes things a lot more difficult and his Lannister life wasn't so bad.

[The King's Foot]

I'm opening up slightly to the A+J=T theory, but I'm betting it's a red herring/rabbit hole by GRRM. The key piece of evidence to me is the quote from GRRM that the third head doesn't have to be Targaryen. Therefore Tyrion can be the third head w/o being Aerys' byblow. If he had never said that I would probably believe all three heads had to be Targs (and I'm definitely in the Aegon-is-a-fake camp), so I would need Tyrion to be Targ for the series to make sense.

Best part about this thread is thinking about the implications of A+J=J&C. First, their twincest now has honorable precedent (Targaryencest long having been acceptable), AND, Joffrey and Tommen are therefore legitimate rulers of Westeros! Series over, we've righted the Westerosi Royal ship - good job everyone!

Robert's rebellion becomes merely a successional squabble - depose Aerys and the Lyanna-stealing Rhaegar and marry the most eligible Targaryen bride (Cersei) and keep on producing Targaryen heirs. Of course they turn out to be not half-baratheon, but, you know, details...

[Ecthelion]

I must say, I'd noticed but never really paid attention to the fact that all three of the "main" character's mother's died in childbirth. I can certainly see Martin connecting them in some way other than just fate - whether it's Targ blood or otherwise.

If Aerys was really Tyrion's father it also explains why he took so much glee in appointing Jaime to the Kingsguard - he knew this would prevent Tywin's true son from inheriting Casterly Rock. It also explains why Tywin always seemed to loathe the notion of Tyrion inheriting the Rock. Aerys also seems like the kind of guy who would really take sadistic pleasure in making a guy like Tywin squirm this way - how does he disinherit Tyrion without besmirching his Lannister pride?

I'm not sure how I feel about it - but I can certainly see Martin choosing to make it happen, dues ex machina or not.

[Wouter]

I'm not sure how I feel about it - but I can certainly see Martin choosing to make it happen, dues ex machina or not.

It would hardly be Deus Ex Machine though, Tyrion dreaming about dragons and his tensions with Tywin were established in book 1. True, Martin is more direct in ADWD but the theory certainly existed well before this.

The third head doesn't have to be Targaryen; that's true, but depending on the exact wording from Martin, he didn't confirm the third head indeed is no Targaryen, did he? He was rather vague about this still IIRC.

[bronnxtyrion]

People often mention Tyrion's whitish blond hair as a proof for him being a Targ.Since when did genetics become mixing of colours? You should get either platinum or blond but to think they got mixed and became pale blond is absurd.I remember Lancel being descibed to have whitish blond hair when he became weak due to sickness. I think it is a similar case with Tyrion. Tyrion has a few non lannister characteristics. But they are not Targ characteristics either. The dwarfism and black hair in the beard is not shown to be a Targ characteristics. I don't remember any pure Targ being said to have mismatched eyes. In my opinion Shiera Seastar most likely got it from her mother's side.

Considering that Aerys was attracted to Joanna during the period of Tywin's marriage probably makes the Twins more likely to be Aerys'. But Tyrion being Aerys' is IMO still a long shot.

[Jay Bee]

I (think? hope? pray?) believe GRRM won't give us 3 secret Targaryens (Jon, Aegon and Tyrion). He just wouldn't pull something so....crap

My take on it when reading the A + J info as revealed by Barristan was simply 'GRRM is fucking with us'.