[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing

[Auska]

1 in a 1000 could just as easily be a number. A way of saying something is rare, it doesn't actually mean that every 1 child born out of a 1000 is a warg. Especially considering the second part, 1 in a 1000 is a warg and 1 in a 1000 of them is a greenseeer. Yet only two greenseeers still live yet logically 1 in a 1.000.000 should be one. Westeros alone has more people in it then that. Combine the rest of the world and there should still be a dozen greenseeers. And even if the numbers were correct it wouldn't necessarily mean that those rare few would be picked at random, blood, heritage or external factors of some other kind could play a part. For all we know the Starks never got their powers until the Direwolves showed up in the equation. At least I've never seen any reason to believe they had any kind of special power beforehand.

Right. To put it shorter:

1. 1/1000 isn't necessarily an exact figure; and

2. It doesn't imply even distribution among the populace. It could for example be 1/100 wildlings and 1/5 Starks. That leaves few to go around.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Tyrion has one green and one black eye. Should have been purple and green for this Aerys-Joanna thing to work.

Seeing how infallible the genes in Martin's story are in showing themselves, no purple eyes should kill this theory.

[Wouter]

I (think? hope? pray?) believe GRRM won't give us 3 secret Targaryens (Jon, Aegon and Tyrion). He just wouldn't pull something so....crap

My take on it when reading the A + J info as revealed by Barristan was simply 'GRRM is fucking with us'.

Jon is almost certainly a "secret Targ" and this has been quite clear since book 1. The jury is still out on Tyrion but it is not an outlandish possibility - the theory is not certain but it is respectable.

Aegon, on the other hand, seems to be the opposite: somebody who is hailed as a bona-fide Targaryen but who actually has been implied (by prophecies) to not actually be a Targaryen (or at least not Aegon, son of Rhaegar, as Varys presents him).

For some reason though, people seem to readily accept Aegon on face value but be horrified by the idea of Tyrion as Aerys' bastard. The total number of hidden Targs would be 2 in both cases, though.

[G Vico]

For some reason though, people seem to readily accept Aegon on face value but be horrified by the idea of Tyrion as Aerys' bastard. The total number of hidden Targs would be 2 in both cases, though.

Everything would be much simpler if the dragon had only two heads.

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

ummm, I don't think having dragon dreams necessarily qualifies someone as a targ-- after all , if L+R=J, u don't see Jon having any dragon dreams at all IIRC.

I think Tyrion turning out to be a secret targ would cheapen his whole storyline.

now Jaime and cersei-- incest etc... that'd be a lil more interesting. and I like the posts abt jaime killing his father and Tyrion killing his daddy.

[Aegon I]

Shiera Seastar was the last of the Great Bastards of Aegon IV. She was famous for her beauty.

Shiera was renowned as a famous beauty and seductress, with long typically Targaryen silver-gold hair, and a heart-shaped face. Although she had two mismatched eyes, (one blue, the other green), it was said that the "defect" only enhanced her beauty. She was a great reader, even at an early age, spoke many languages, and maintained a large and arcane library.

Sounds like Tyrion to me

[So1ar]

God I hope Tyrion/Cersei/Jaime are not Targs. There's already enough of this supposedly dead family running around. What point will this serve in the development of those characters? Tyrion's whole conflict revolves around his father and he is still struggling with killing him/shea. I swear if any of the Lannister siblings are Targs then GRRM has just jumped the shark with the biggest water skies I've ever seen.

[The Direfox]

The problem is, Dany has twice been shown to be immune to fire.

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me.

It had been the same in Daznak's Pit.

Martin, George R.R. (2011). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five (Kindle Locations 20719-20720). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

I essentially agree with you that Jon being affected by fire means little though.

I think what he was saying is that Dany being immune to fire is a one-off thing, where other Targs are still vulnerable, as can be seen by Brightflame, Summerhall, etc..

[Phire]

If Tyrion isn't Tywin's son, I'd be very disappointed.

So much intriguing story and awesome character development would sort of go to waste.

Proud, powerful, and stern Tywin has a natural dwarf son :drunk:

It's just too good to waste.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

I dont think any of the Lannisters are Targs, but Aerys liking Joanna has to have some significance.. Just cant figure out what

[The Direfox]

ha, watch Dany be Tywin's daughter...

[Where Boars Glow]

I think that I have a lot of really complicated feelings about Tyrion being a scion of the Targaryns.

First: All of the dragon dreams, etc, can be explained away with non-Targaryn explanations. He's a stunted, twisted thing whose own father doesn't want him. Of course he dreams of magic-of things that can make even wizened, twisted bodies into wizards. It's much the same as Bran after his accident. But not every little boy that dreams of dragons gets to ride them. Even with Targaryn blood. Cough, Viserys, who burned.

I dream about Dragons all the time...they are awesome....that doesn't make me a secret Targ......or does it?

[The Red Hand]

I dream about Dragons all the time...they are awesome....that doesn't make me a secret Targ......or does it?

If you dreamed of dragons frequently and started fires that you stared at for hours? A secret Targ or a pyromaniac.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Arguments against A+J=T:

1. There are too many secret targs running around!

When someone upthread asked for an exact no. of secret targs running around they were given Jaime, Cersei, Jon, HOT PIE LOL! First of all not one of the persons listed is a confirmed secret Targ, only suspected. Even Jon is not a foregone conclusion, GRRM could pull the rug from under us at any time. Aegon is really our only secret Targ and the jury is still out on what he really is.

2. It ruins the dynamic between Tyrion and Tywin/makes developement moot!

As stated upthread it actually adds an angle to the relationship as well. Tyrion has never felt a part of this family, even stating to Jon that he dreams of their terrible deaths (Tywin and Cersei). He only became "Tywin writ small" (posting that phrase a thousand times in this thread doesn't make it true lol) when he realized his father was not going to let him live life the way he wanted (ie ending the tumbling; making him master of drains).

3. I don't like it! It ruins the story for me!

Well with all due respect I doubt GRRM is giving your feelings any consideration if this was planned from the beginning.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I agree with most that I don't like this theory or hope that it pans out. There's no reason for Tyrion to be a secret Targ. I think Aerys having feelings or whatever for Joanna is just more background info that further develops some addition motive for Tywin's eventual involvement in Robert's Rebellion.

[DonJoseDarrion]

Interesting parralels between Dany, Jon, and Tyrion:

All 3 had mothers that died in childbirth (Assuming Jon is a Targaryen)

All 3 had lovers who died

All 3 killed a relative or in Dany's case had a relative killed due to inaction. I'm counting Quorin Halfhand as Jon's "brother" in this one.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I could also add in the support column:

The day that Tyrion sits the iron throne (after drugging Cersei). He makes an awesome king-for-a-day. He even entertains the court while somewhat assisting the NW (very deftly done!). and he doesn't even cut himself...

[chrisdaw]

Two things.

Joanna has been somewhat more developed as a character than would seem necessary, what with her alleged total control over Tywin and her having made the marriage matches for Jaime and Cersei. Also there's the "tears are a woman's weapon" hint towards her true nature.

I doubt the information is insignificant.

And in Westeros a Lord who is unable to father children would be a running joke, and Tywin Lannister did so hate to be laughed at. “Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it.”

And another one actually, people saying they have dragon dreams and it doesn't make them a Targ. Every character to have had a dragon dream in the published material are known to have had at least a drop of Targ, excepting Tyrion.

[Woman of War]

Confession:

I have never liked the Tyrion Targ Theory because of the great father-son dynamics if Tywin were Tyrion's biological father. But I start to warm up to Tyrion as Aerys', I have become very curious.

[Arya Stalka]

My lizard brain thought that when Genna said Tyrion is Tywin's true son that perhaps that meant those insestuous twins were Targs. I thought the mad king took advantage of that right to bed the wife 1st even though that was supposed to have ceased. But I guess I must be totally wrong since (mostly) everyone thinks Tyrion is the Targ. I thought Tywin was shooting blanks and then finally.... Tyrion. Oh wells.