[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing

[Black Crow]

What Tyrion's dragon dreams?

He daydreams of having a dragon which he can use to revenge himself on his enemies starting with Cersei on down

[chrisdaw]

No he says he has dreams of dragons, less so now than when he was a child, not necessarily prophetic dragon dreams but dreams about dragons.

[Black Crow]

No he says he has dreams of dragons, less so now than when he was a child, not necessarily prophetic dragon dreams but dreams about dragons.

"...When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own"

"You did?" [Jon Snow] said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look of equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't..."

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own..."

AGOT chapter 13 Tyrion

[chrisdaw]

You're right, the ADWD passage also reads like fantasy.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Geez, it is not just one freaking dream people, he dreams of dragons like 5 times. I am not saying they are all prophetic, but he's never even seen a dragon, why is he dreaming of them so much? Any families around which are famous for dreaming of dragons?......OH right......

Jon and Tyrion in GOT----"What are you reading about?" he asked
1. "Dragons, ' Tyrion told him.
"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.
"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."
"You did? ' the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.
"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bear skin aside and climbed to his feet. " I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion Guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."
................

2. 'Most men,' the boy said. "But not you.'
'No, ' Tyrion admitted, 'not me. I seldom ever dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

3.

“He drained it down, and yawned, and filled it once again. If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.

When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o’er fields and mountains. Once when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his name day, he begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.” His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night.

Yet if the lord of cheese could be believed the Mad King’s daughter had hatched three living dragons. Two more than even a Targaryen should require.”

4. “I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.”

“Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.”

5.

“That night TYrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.”

The last three are all in DwD while Tyrion is journeying across Essos, he has several more dreams after these, but they are all about Tywin. The dragon dreams stop when this happens;

“Too rich, thought Tyrion, Too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale and leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.”

Um yeah, that would be Drogon flying right over Tyrion, the same way he came to Dany in the pit from hundreds of miles away. See dragons like people with Targaryen blood, these 3 dragons especially like people that have Dany's blood in them, Tyrion has 1/2 the same blood as Dany and Drogon knows it. That's why he appears to Tyrion and no one else in DwD, he is seeking out Dragonlords to chill with. Tyrion was dreaming of dragons non-stop until he saw a real one. (He is the first POV to see a dragon besides Dany.)

[Steelborn]

It doesn't necessarily mean anything in my opinion. He may be dreaming frequently because he's heading to Daenerys and he's anxious since she has real dragons.

In one of Arianne's sample chapters, there's that girl who dreams of the second dance of dragons. I don't think she's a secret Targaryen whatsoever.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It doesn't necessarily mean anything in my opinion. He may be dreaming frequently because he's heading to Daenerys and he's anxious since she has real dragons.

In one of Arianne's sample chapters, there's that girl who dreams of the second dance of dragons. I don't think she's a secret Targaryen whatsoever.

Why does everyone keep using the phrase "secret Targaryen"??

And yeah, sorry but Telora Toland was having a full-on prophetic dragon dream. I would bet my car that we will find out soon she has some Targaryen blood in her family, which would not be uncommon at all in the wealthy/notable houses in Dorne. Their house sigil is a dragon chasing it's tail, pretty certain that is no coincidence.

[Steelborn]

Why does everyone keep using the phrase "secret Targaryen"??

And yeah, sorry but Telora Toland was having a full-on prophetic dragon dream. I would bet my car that we will find out soon she has some Targaryen blood in her family, which would not be uncommon at all in the wealthy/notable houses in Dorne. Their house sigil is a dragon chasing it's tail, pretty certain that is no coincidence.

Sorry, but wasn't the point of mentioning Tyrion's dragon dreams to reinforce the idea that he's a 'secret Targaryen'?

I do, however, think that he'll be one of the heads of the dragon and Martin's said that the third won't necessarily have to be a Targaryen, so I guess he was talking about Tyrion. But his dreams are likely foreshadowing not, you know, prophetic dragon dreams.

Fair point about Telora's house though.

[chrisdaw]

Geez, it is not just one freaking dream people, he dreams of dragons like 5 times.

Thank you for number 2, that's the one I couldn't find that shows they're not daydreams.

[SusieSnow]

Nope. You're wrong. A bastard son is completely out of the line of succession unless legitimized by the king. Being Aerys' bastard would not make Tyrion heir to anything at all.

None of your other "evidence" is evidence at all. Tyrion is not important because of any supposed Targ blood, he's important because of his intelligence and political mind (which he sure as hell wouldn't have inherited from Aerys). I think your ideas about what is important for GRRM and the story are very misguided.

You also don't get GRRM's use of dramatic irony if you think that Tywin Lannister's wish to not consider Tyrion his son, because his pride was deeply hurt by the fact that he could produce such a "monster"(despite knowing deep inside that Tyrion is the most like him out of his three children, which his sister Genna pointed out to him as well: "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you" as she told Jaime; as also seen in Tywin's projection of all his character flaws into Tyrion: "you are an ill-made, spiteful, disobedient creature full of envy, lust and low cunning" and particularly seen in his expressions of disgust at Tyrion's whoring) was ever going to be validated by the text. If anything, if any of the Lannisters are going to be revealed as Aerys' bastards, it will be Jaime and Cersei: what delicious irony it would be if it turned out that the "monstrous" creature he hated was his only biological child, while the beautiful golden twins were not his. Not to mention the additional ironies of Jaime killing his biological father just as Tyrion killed his biological father, and of Cersei having been in love with another one of her brothers. And there is a whole lot more evidence in the text of J and C possibly being Aerys' bastards: from Joffrey's similarities to Aerys and other crazy/asshole Targaryens, to Cersei's love of fire and similarities to Aerys, to Aerys' strange attitude and possessiveness of Jaime.

Personally, I think all Tywin's kids are probably his, but there's a possibility that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys'. But even if they are not, I think that Aerys may have either believed Jaime was his son, or wanted to believe or wished it was true even if Joanna never slept with him (kind of like Littlefinger wants to think of Sansa as a daughter he could have had with Cat). In addition to his attempts to take Jaime away from Tywin (everyone thinks it's because he wanted to spite him, but what if it was more than that?), it is particularly odd that Aerys relied on Jaime as the only KG he needed by his side during the rebellion and the way he expected Jaime to take his side against Tywin and kill Tywin to protect Aerys.

True, a bastard cannot inherit lands or title unless he is legitimized by King or Queen and/or if the father does not have any other true-born children or kin. Keep in mind that King Roberts bastards were killed to prevent any potential challenges to the throne. So obviously there was room for concern. If it came down to it, there's a plethora of possible scenarios that could play out and change Tyrion's succession status.

As for my ideas being "misguided"... wow... I think it's YOU who is seriously misguided if you actually believe that GRRM's favorite character is only important because he's intelligent and politically keen. Are we reading the same story by the same author? ASoIaF is much more complex than that. Tyrion is much more significant and important in this story than you give GRRM credit for. The arc is building....

The only dramatic irony I see is Tywin's 2 beautiful, true-born children have behaved more monstrous than Tyrion.... who (ironically) is probably a true bastard afterall. I think Genna's comments to Jaime about Tyrion being more like Tywin is a red herring. So is the incest between Jaime and Cercei. GRRM is a strategic, brilliant writer who knows how to weave a web and set-up an unexpected plot twist. His style of writing requires one to pay attention to subtle clues. The obvious ones are questionable.

Per Jaime - Aerys leaned on him to spite & torment his father AND him. Plain and simple.

Littlefinger does not think of Sansa as a daughter. He thinks of her as his replacement Cat. I don't think he'd kiss a daughter full on the lips. Do you?

Based on subtle clues, I think Tyrion is probably KA bastard.... 1/2 brother to Dany, and Uncle to Jon Snow, whom he's been very fond of from the beginning. I'm undecided on whether or not he'll ride a dragon though. Just my opinion....

[Amris]

Geez, it is not just one freaking dream people, he dreams of dragons like 5 times. I am not saying they are all prophetic, but he's never even seen a dragon, why is he dreaming of them so much? Any families around which are famous for dreaming of dragons?......OH right......

Jon and Tyrion in GOT----"What are you reading about?" he asked

1. "Dragons, ' Tyrion told him.

"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did? ' the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bear skin aside and climbed to his feet. " I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion Guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

................

2. 'Most men,' the boy said. "But not you.'

'No, ' Tyrion admitted, 'not me. I seldom ever dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

3.

“He drained it down, and yawned, and filled it once again. If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.

When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o’er fields and mountains. Once when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his name day, he begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.” His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night.

Yet if the lord of cheese could be believed the Mad King’s daughter had hatched three living dragons. Two more than even a Targaryen should require.”

4. “I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.”

“Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.”

5.

“That night TYrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.”

The last three are all in DwD while Tyrion is journeying across Essos, he has several more dreams after these, but they are all about Tywin. The dragon dreams stop when this happens;

“Too rich, thought Tyrion, Too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale and leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.”

Um yeah, that would be Drogon flying right over Tyrion, the same way he came to Dany in the pit from hundreds of miles away. See dragons like people with Targaryen blood, these 3 dragons especially like people that have Dany's blood in them, Tyrion has 1/2 the same blood as Dany and Drogon knows it. That's why he appears to Tyrion and no one else in DwD, he is seeking out Dragonlords to chill with. Tyrion was dreaming of dragons non-stop until he saw a real one. (He is the first POV to see a dragon besides Dany.)

Scenes 1-3 seem to describe Tyrion liking to daydream as a child, just like Black Crow pointed out. Scene 4 is about Dany feeding him to her dragons, scene 5 is about a battle Tyrion takes part in as a foot soldier with dragons flying overhead. None of these scenes point to Tyrion being a Targ or aquiring a dragon of his own.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Scenes 1-3 seem to describe Tyrion liking to daydream as a child, just like Black Crow pointed out. Scene 4 is about Dany feeding him to her dragons, scene 5 is about a battle Tyrion takes part in as a foot soldier with dragons flying overhead. None of these scenes point to Tyrion being a Targ or aquiring a dragon of his own.

I was not suggesting that these dreams = him getting a dragon. I am saying that NO ONE in the books or short stories dreams of Dragons except Targaryens. Him having dreams about Dragons = being a Targaryen.

[Syri0_F0rel]

I was not suggesting that these dreams = him getting a dragon. I am saying that NO ONE in the books or short stories dreams of Dragons except Targaryens. Him having dreams about Dragons = being a Targaryen.

I think a lot of people are splitting hairs and that you make a solid point. The A+J=T was hanging on just a couple hints, like his white, not blond, hair. I thought I was reading into things that weren't meant to be read into, until TWOIAF came out. It is pretty clear to me Tyrion is Aery's. There is more to Jon-Tyrion friendship than a comradery among outcasts, Jon is his nephew. Just as Tyrion day dreamed of burning Casterly Rock with a dragon, Jon often pretended to be Rhaegar while playing with Robb.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think a lot of people are splitting hairs and that you make a solid point. The A+J=T was hanging on just a couple hints, like his white, not blond, hair. I thought I was reading into things that weren't meant to be read into, until TWOIAF came out. It is pretty clear to me Tyrion is Aery's. There is more to Jon-Tyrion friendship than a comradery among outcasts, Jon is his nephew. Just as Tyrion day dreamed of burning Casterly Rock with a dragon, Jon often pretended to be Rhaegar while playing with Robb.

It's totally incredible how solid evidence just falls on deaf ears around here sometimes. If Jon had a dream of a dragon = He is Rhaegars son, duh, end of story. Tyrion dreams of dragons and it's just day dreams, anyone could have them (although no one else does). The inconsistency of how people view evidence is infuriating! I try and apply the same reasoning to every situation.