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[ADwD Spoilers] That Tyrion thing


Lord Varys

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Regardless of whatever happened at the bedding to make Tywin angry, he clearly continued to serve under Aerys and even try to betroth his daughter to Aerys's son. It was only after Aerys rejected the proposal that Tywin turned sour. I'm not sure why Tywin apparently forgave whatever liberties Aerys took but not the things Aerys said. On some level, it doesn't matter.

Maybe the real reason Aerys rejected Cersei as Rhaegar's bride is because he suspected Cersei was his bastard daughter and that this would somehow come out. Just a thought.

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ever heard the sentence: nurture and nature

I think he might not be tywin blood,

but he is a lannister non the less

Do you think Tywin would give a rat' ... about someone who is not his own blood? He barely cares about Kevan and Lancel. While he treats the imp with a sort of contempt, he clearly feels that Tyrion is his child. Tywin does not seem the kind of man who would hold an imp in that much regard if he weren't his. Personally, if Tyrion is Targeryan, it's just stupid, and a pointless plot in a great character, much like turning Bran into a tree. Really a tree? I get the metaphor, can't walk, you might as well be a tree, but still ...

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Agree with the nature vs. nurture comment...

I always figured that Jaime and Cersei might have been Aerys' children. Not that it made them special, or gave them great destinies. Instead I always assumed it was just another way of showing that not all people who are related to Targaryens have the blood of the dragon. Like Viserys.

Also, some of the major houses seem to have their own uncanny qualities. The Tyrells of Highgarden are descended from a man who could make flowers bloom at his touch and seem to have a real knack for agriculture. The Starks have "wolf's blood" - the ability to warg, and maybe more. The Baratheons claim to be descended from a weather god and a few of them are warriors of almost supernatural ability.

The Lannisters are descended from Lan the Trickster, or Lan the clever. I can't recall which. I can certainly see Tywin's plotting, Tyrion's cunning, and Jaime's knack for biting quips and swordplay as being very trickster-like qualities. All of the children Tywin claimed, regardless of who fathered them, have some of Lan's blood and are at heart Lannisters.

I think the scene where Tyrion walks in on Tywin and finds him with a whore is especially telling. At first, it seems to set Tywin up as nothing more than a hypocrite. But how much do we really know about his personal life? For all we know, Tywin and Joanna could have had an open relationship. Maybe Tywin could not father children of his own. It could be that Tywin and his wife had unorthodox ideas about sex and marital infidelity, but were very careful about maintaining their privacy and reputation.

So, the Starks are werewolves, maybe that's why they conquered the north, but what I don't get if it's 1 in 1000 are wargs, why aren't there more wargs in westeros and why are all of them in the Stark family? And Targeryans Wargs too, that's how they conquered the dragons?

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Varys didn't groom Tyrion to kill Tywin. Tyrion did that all on his own. Yes even Varys can't be held responsible for everything.... <_<

I think people miss the point, of the book, you can't plan for ...t Varys groomed the Targeryan boy to return, however, how well did that one work out in terms of having him meet up with his sister? You think Varys planned on having Tyrion killed Tywin, that's insane, Varys had nothing to do with it, when VArys does plan something it barely goes right, Viserys died, Aegon didn't meet his sister, Dany is still in Mereen, Tywin died cause Tywin ruined Tyrion's life in his eyes. That's it, starting from the time, he was a kid. It's pretty clear why Tyrion killed Tywin, so he might learn "where do whores go?".

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It seems like by the end of ADwD there are far too many potential Targs running around (not including Dany who we knew from the start) for a house that was said to be destroyed.

Be patient with me please, but I only count one extra in ADWD - Little Griff. Granted I've only read the book once, but can someone fill me in?

Thanks in advance!

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Be patient with me please, but I only count one extra in ADWD - Little Griff. Granted I've only read the book once, but can someone fill me in?

Thanks in advance!

There were also some speculations about Jon Snow, Aurane Waters, Tyron Lannister, Jaime & Cersei Lannister and Hot Pie.

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So, the Starks are werewolves, maybe that's why they conquered the north, but what I don't get if it's 1 in 1000 are wargs, why aren't there more wargs in westeros and why are all of them in the Stark family? And Targeryans Wargs too, that's how they conquered the dragons?

1 in a 1000 could just as easily be a number. A way of saying something is rare, it doesn't actually mean that every 1 child born out of a 1000 is a warg. Especially considering the second part, 1 in a 1000 is a warg and 1 in a 1000 of them is a greenseeer. Yet only two greenseeers still live yet logically 1 in a 1.000.000 should be one. Westeros alone has more people in it then that. Combine the rest of the world and there should still be a dozen greenseeers. And even if the numbers were correct it wouldn't necessarily mean that those rare few would be picked at random, blood, heritage or external factors of some other kind could play a part. For all we know the Starks never got their powers until the Direwolves showed up in the equation. At least I've never seen any reason to believe they had any kind of special power beforehand.

So I really wouldn't put to much faith into the whole there should be more wargs thing.

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Things picked up in a re-read. P. 121 - Lannisters are part Targ. So Tyrion is all set from a dragon riding perspective irrespective of who is father really is (Tywin, Aerys or anyone else, as his mother is a Lannister cousin as well.)

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Things picked up in a re-read. P. 121 - Lannisters are part Targ. So Tyrion is all set from a dragon riding perspective irrespective of who is father really is (Tywin, Aerys or anyone else, as his mother is a Lannister cousin as well.)

I don't have my hardcopy on hand and kindle doesn't have page numbers...could you quote for the rest of the class?

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Things picked up in a re-read. P. 121 - Lannisters are part Targ. So Tyrion is all set from a dragon riding perspective irrespective of who is father really is (Tywin, Aerys or anyone else, as his mother is a Lannister cousin as well.)

Quentyn was part Targ too and it didn't help him much in becoming a dragon rider. ;)

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I definitely think the Tyrion/Targ theory seems to have picked up a lot of steam. I don't think there's any real reason to declare it true and absolute, but on the other hand, claiming that it "would be stupid" or is a "fanboy" idea is not a particularly well-grounded counter-argument.

But even if it turns out to be true, I don't think it cheapens Tyrion's character at all. As others have pointed out, Tywin was still his father, blood or no. And murdering Tywin will still weigh on him the rest of his life. Imagine finding out that one of your parents was not, in fact, your blood parent. Does it render their entire existence with you (good or bad) utterly obsolete, cheap and meaningless? No, not even close.

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I don't think GRRM has any intention of revealing Tyrion as a targaryen. He's dangling it there to provoke speculation and discussion.

The Aerys wanting Joanna plotline is relevant in terms of explaining Tywin's doubts and suspicions regarding whether Tyrion was truly his son or not. Tywin certainly seemed of the view that Tyrion might not be his son.

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For those of you that believe that Tywin knew or strongly suspected that Tyrion was a bastard by Aerys, I give you two quotes:

ASoS Tyrion 1 (Ch. 4): "You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine."

AGoT Tyrion 4: "Tywin Lannister cared not a fig for his deformed son, but he tolerated no slights on the honor of his House."

The first quote is often used to support the argument that Tywin suspected something was amiss. However, Tywin says this in the heat of the moment. It would seem to make sense that Tywin would list his grievances more or less in order of their importance to him. Questionable parentage would certainly be a more pressing reason for disinheriting Tyrion than his character. The quote is most properly interpreted as stating that Tywin hates Tyrion because he took away the only thing Tywin ever loved, Tywin considers him ill-equipped to rule from Casterly Rock besides, and that Tywin would disavow him if he could.

The second quote is far more telling. If Tywin Lannister suspected that Tyrion was a bastard by Aerys, there would be two results. The first would be that Tywin would hate Aerys for killing his wife; the second would be that Tywin would hate Aerys for dishonoring his house. Actively plotting the demise of Aerys would have started immediately, and if that was the case Tywin likely would have responded to Baratheon, Stark and Arryn rising with a raven inquiring when and where he could sign up. He might not have gone public with his support so that he could betray Aerys, but he wouldn't have had to deliver the slain Targaryen children to Robert as proof of his loyalty either. He'd have been in the conspiracy from early on.

On the plus side for the theory that Tywin knew, this tends to explain why Tywin was so upset when Jaime joined the Kingsguard, although we were given ample explanation for that in ASoS.

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I refuse to believe it. I think GRRM is just messing with us. Tyrion is Tywin writ small. Their relationship loses more than half of its poignancy if Tyrion was Aerys's son all along.

I think this speaks for most of us here, I don't think too many people would be happy with Tyrion being Aerys' kid. Tyrion being Tywin's realest son is pretty much the entire point of their twisted relationship. Three books of character development would go out the window. It would be awful.

It would be much more poignant and highly ironic for Jaime and Cersei to be Aerys', if anything. Especially since that would mean Jaime killed his own father. Just image how much havoc that would wreak on Jaime's already scarred psyche if he found that out. Would also be ironic that Tyrion would have just followed Jaime's patricidal lead.

But I personally don't think Aerys ever slept with Joanna at all. We have no indication Joanna ever gave a crap about Aerys, and I would expect something like that to be mentioned. It just hasn't been foreshadowed at all. I think the Aerys desiring Joanna is just adding more reasons for them to resent each other, as well as Martin playing with fan ideas of Tyrion being Aerys' kid (which I'm sure Martin was aware of). It's a minor touch in my opinion and not anything that will go anywhere truly important.

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If Jaime and Cersei are Targs then Dany is CerseiĀ“s valonquar, LOL.

Not agreeing on the Lannisters are Targ theories, though. These are fun to speculate, but what would that bring to the story? If Tyrion is meant to ride a dragon, he can accomplish it with his wits and his knowledge, and it would bear a heavier weight than a genetic predisposition. It would also shield him from the kinslayer curse, which it a big dissapointment. It would also shortcut though all his issues with Tywin, instead of making him grow up for once. Sort of like Jaime discovering in AFFC that he was ambidextrous but never noticed it before, so all is good and he in back in the fight.

And Jaime / Cersei, though entretaining as hell, would make 4 dragonriders. Maybe Cersei and Dany will fight for a dragon, and Dany will strqangle Cersei?

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I think this speaks for most of us here, I don't think too many people would be happy with Tyrion being Aerys' kid. Tyrion being Tywin's realest son is pretty much the entire point of their twisted relationship. Three books of character development would go out the window. It would be awful.

How so?

Regardless of whether Tyrion was fathered by Aerys, he was raised by Tywin. He lived his whole life as a Lannister. And he lived it in the shadow of his father's disapproval and resentment. These things don't change if he was a Targaryen by blood all along. His character is still formed by Tywin, regardless of his blood. He's still Tywin writ small.

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