[ADwD Spoilers] Young Griff

[Basileus777]

Can we at least ASSUME the hair is a foregone conclusion else wise why bother dying it if he can't even LOOK the part even if he was fake?

And I can't imagine that Connington and his tutors would have failed to notice his true hair color after all these years. I think it's safe to assume that his hair is silver blonde.

Also Connington in 20 years should have spotted if Young Griff was a fake (from his POV is clear that he believes that Young Griff is the Prince).

How would Connington tell the difference between the real Aegon and a different, but similarly featured boy?

[Ran]

Agreed. He has that golden/silvery hair of a Valyrian, or apparent Valyrian.

As to Blackfyre... I'm liking the notion that Varys hasn't been entirely truthful about the circumstances of his gelding.

What if he was a female-line descended Blackfyre who was gelded by someone or other following the War of the Ninepenny Kings. As a "mercy", instead of killing him. So his motivations may not be solely pure and perfect.

If we believe that Varys plans everything to a T.... how is it that he just happened to drive Aerys's paranoia until he destroyed the Targaryen reign? Who convinced Aerys that the Martells were ready to betray him and to keep the children near at hand? Is Varys's interest really the restoration of the Targaryens... or was it always and ever to restore his choice for king?

And Tyrion... Tyrion wonders what Illyrio is getting out of all of this. Illyrio claims it's just friendship. Oh, yeah? Really? Tyrion didn't buy it, and I sure don't.

[Brendan Moody]

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that Aegon didn't have silver-gold hair underneath the dye, only that we haven't gotten the total effect of his true appearance, so we can't judge how thoroughly Targaryen he does or doesn't look.

This idea about Illyrio's son is... intriguing.

[Howling North]

Agreed. He has that golden/silvery hair of a Valyrian, or apparent Valyrian.

As to Blackfyre... I'm liking the notion that Varys hasn't been entirely truthful about the circumstances of his gelding.

What if he was a female-line descended Blackfyre who was gelded by someone or other following the War of the Ninepenny Kings. As a "mercy", instead of killing him. So his motivations may not be solely pure and perfect.

If we believe that Varys plans everything to a T.... how is it that he just happened to drive Aerys's paranoia until he destroyed the Targaryen reign? Who convinced Aerys that the Martells were ready to betray him and to keep the children near at hand? Is Varys's interest really the restoration of the Targaryens... or was it always and ever to restore his choice for king?

And Tyrion... Tyrion wonders what Illyrio is getting out of all of this. Illyrio claims it's just friendship. Oh, yeah? Really? Tyrion didn't buy it, and I sure don't.

I'm of the opinion that Varys drove Aerys mad (if that's what he did) so that Rhaegar would have no choice but depose him, as seems to be indicated by Jamie and now Connington. Convincing Aerys to keep the Martells close makes sense with absconding with Aegon as well, in order to cover up his likely demise/death had he stayed at King's Landing and give Varys a chance to groom/shape him for rule.

And even if that was the case, why bother? Being of Blackfyre descent would have been just as good as Targaryean, marrying Dany would have brought House Targaryen back to power anyway. Certainly wouldn't have made a bit of difference to the Golden Company.

He asked Illyrio in the context of helping Dany so much, which it really wasn't since the ACTUAL person he was counting on and helped groom to rule was Aegon, both he and Varys would likely be on the same level as Connington in terms of power and influence on the new Small Council.

And like people have said before, there's still the pickle about Varys last words to Kevan. Why bother with deception or lies at that point, really?

[banditry]

Even if Aegon is a fake, he doesn't know he's a fake, and presumably will never be told - - so what difference would it make to what Illyrio "gets" out of it, one way or the other?

I just don't see it. There is too much to lose; there are already doubters about his legitimacy, as we know from the Epilogue. Not just any random young boy can be raised to be a Targaryen, and be able to pull off that kind of hoax, whether knowingly or not. It's an audacious claim to make, and the scrutiny is going to be intense. There will be too many people to convince, and that's a hard game to play unless you have the real thing.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

My theory has always been that Varys is plotting to put a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne.

So Ran if your suspicions are true, then it all fits. Not from the male line, but the female line (Illyrio's wife), and put a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. Isn't that just like the War of the Roses, Henry VII was from a legitimized bastard line on the female side!

[Howling North]

I still think Connington would have seen through it, he doesn't trust Varys at all, and he grew up with Rhaegar enough to know his features and his disposition over the ages. It'd be a TALL order to try and fool him after they also LEFT Aegon under his care. And there's still the matter of telling Kevan... and no I'm not going with word games again, there's no point as others have said, and that was probably the most sincere/frank Varys has ever been to a person, it only makes sense if said person were dying, to confess something like that.

[Slick Mongoose]

I still think Connington would have seen through it, he doesn't trust Varys at all, and he grew up with Rhaegar enough to know his features and his disposition over the ages. It'd be a TALL order to try and fool him after they also LEFT Aegon under his care.

I still don't understand this argument. Why would it be hard? The son wouldn't be expected to be an exact replica of Rhaegar.

And lets face it, Connington wants it to be true. Would he really go looking for evidence against it?

[Howling North]

True, but its another thing for said son to be from a totally different person/line and possibly not bear any resemblance to said father. If Connington wasn't so suspicious of Varys, (and everyone really) then I wouldn't argue the point so much. But he's nowhere near that far gone for me to think he takes anything under at face value, not anymore. Exile has hardened him considerably.

[Thefalconemperor]

I don't think Varys would manage to plot Aerys downfall in a way his demise and the demise of most of the Targaryens would coincide with a baby pretender looking exactly almost the same as Aegon VI. I mean, we have a few people with Targ features here and there, yes, but only the Daynes managed to have platinum blonde hair at the same time as violet eyes. Which are the chances of finding a boy looking exactly like that and at the same age as Aegon?

Also I don't think having purple eyes instead of dark indigo like Rhaegar's matters that much. I mean, Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany were full brothers and had eyes respectively of dark indigo, lilac and purple!

And even if he wasn't Aegon VI, how it would be ever proved unless Varys spelled it out loud? Why would he ever do it in fact? Even the dragons are totally out of control and I don't think it could be argued they are reliable Targ DNA tests.

[Jon AS]

Exile has hardened him considerably.

But he was told about the kid as he was just beginning to settle into his exile. Part of the reason he is as untrusting as he is is because he's been responsible for "Aegon's" protection for almost two decades.

[Howling North]

But he was told about the kid as he was just beginning to settle into his exile. Part of the reason he is as untrusting as he is is because he's been responsible for "Aegon's" protection for almost two decades.

We see examples in his time as part of the Gold Company that he was learning, and nowhere near as naive as he was before however. And it was coming from Varys of all people, who we know Connington does NOT like, trust, or care for, and had asked him to basically disgrace what was left of his name and his reputation with the Golden Company just as he was about to rise to inherit command. I can't see Jon going for it unless he was thoroughly convinced.

[Brendan Moody]

I mean, we have a few people with Targ features here and there, yes

A few here and there in Westeros. As Ran's quotes suggest, "Targaryen" features seem to be a bit more common in western Essos. Which makes sense, because somewhat different versions of what we think of as distinctly Targaryen features may in fact have been shared among many Valyrian families, from whom some of the people of the Free Cities are descended.

[Tyrone Biggums]

What if Varys whole plan was for this fake "Aegon" to invade and unite the ppl under the Dragon banner...when in fact he's just planning on using the army this fake Dragon makes to get a head start for Dany. It's pretty easy for VArys to find a kid with the features of a Targ and just pass him off - Darkstar also has the Targ look (silver hair and wiolet eyes).

If Dany comes, and the Dragons do not recognize "Aegon" or as he's fighting and everyone loves the guy, he dies (either naturally or though Varys scheming)..all these soldiers and lords left without a Targ to follow or any King, until Dany arrives and they will fall on bended knee to the Dragon Queen.

And ppl seem to be forgetting the whole R+L scenario...Jon is still "around".

[Howling North]

Varys couldn't even have KNOWN they were going to invade though, it was a spontaneous decision spurred by their own impatience and Tyrion's suggestion when the plan they were following took so many unexpected turns.

Yeah, but no one else does, or at least no one whose been able to confirm it. I don't think it has much to do with this matter other then complicating the claim on the Iron Throne even more.

[Jon AS]

I can't see Jon going for it unless he was thoroughly convinced.

But all he has is Varys' word that this infant that has the right hair and eye colour is Rhaegar's, whether it's true or not. I doubt he'd be able to tell the difference at that age, and once he has accepted it he has no reason to doubt.

You think that after 15 years of thinking of the boy as Aegon, son of Rhaegar, he'll suddenly think "y'know, he doesn't really look that much like my old buddy did at that age"? He probably can't even remember all that clearly what Rhaegar looked like at a comparable age (there are no photographs in either Westeros or Essos after all), and add to that the fact that it is accepted that a son does not have to be the spitting image of his father (Joffrey certainly wasn't and nobody questioned it; Tyrion and Tywin don't look that much alike; Robb took more after his mother than father etc), why the hell would he doubt it? He wants to believe, it's his only shot at redeeming himself and going home.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Plus, as far as Connington knows, Varys has no reason to lie. Varys is the master of whispers no matter who is King, so why would he make this up, he gets nothing out of it.

[jurble]

I like the idea of Varys being a Blackfyre or a descendant of Aerion Brightfire.

I mean, his name is VaRYS after all.

[Howling North]

But all he has is Varys' word that this infant that has the right hair and eye colour is Rhaegar's, whether it's true or not. I doubt he'd be able to tell the difference at that age, and once he has accepted it he has no reason to doubt.

You think that after 15 years of thinking of the boy as Aegon, son of Rhaegar, he'll suddenly think "y'know, he doesn't really look that much like my old buddy did at that age"? He probably can't even remember all that clearly what Rhaegar looked like at a comparable age (there are no photographs in either Westeros or Essos after all), and add to that the fact that it is accepted that a son does not have to be the spitting image of his father (Joffrey certainly wasn't and nobody questioned it; Tyrion and Tywin don't look that much alike; Robb took more after his mother than father etc), why the hell would he doubt it? He wants to believe, it's his only shot at redeeming himself and going home.

Err, I'm pretty sure Aegon was around 5 by the time he was fostered on Connigton, since Jon was working for the Golden Company until then.

He seemed to remember just fine while being all nostalgic on top of Griffin's Roost. Or when Aegon came in to the solar. And Joffrey was questioned, how do you think we got into this mess? Tyrion's a misshapen dwarf, I doubt he looks much like anyone else. And Jon knew Elia, so who could tell from her features as well if need be.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

No, that was Connington and Rhaegar.