[ADwD Spoilers] Young Griff

[Jon AS]

Plague

Ah, right. Thanks.

[noobilly]

Crackpot theory incoming:

Now to think of it, there is a very famous Chinese historical semi-legend.

Ancient China was divided into warring states for quite a long time, until the Chin Dynasty united all China by conquering the other states, hence the name "China". At one time, the heir to the Chin dynasty was in a bad state due to his father favoring other heirs, however a rich businessman helped him get his way back to his father's good graces and eventually take over the throne.

This rich businessman also provided the heir a beautiful concubine, who was actually in the early stages of pregnancy sown by the rich businessman himself. The heir had no idea, and his "son" eventually grew up to be the Emperor of China.

Could Ilyrio be doing something vaguely similar? Now you throw in the Wall as a parallel to the Great Wall of China, and it seems even more fitting.

[Markus]

Cloth Dragon could mean several things.

1) That the cloth dragon is a puppet

2) It could be a banner, meaning that a dragon is calling the banners, eg exactly what Aegon is doing.

Dany identified the cloth dragon on poles she saw as a mummer's dragon. A mummer's dragon has never been used as a banner in the setting IIRC. If it's supposed to function as a banner why not use a banner in the first place? Why choose a pretend dragon instead of a banner to signify a real dragon calling his banners? It doesn't make much sense to me.

[Maia]

It's not like people have easy access to his estate.

It is not like he could know that Prince Aegon would die in such a manner that he might be able to replace him with his son, so why the pre-emptive secrecy?

And also, the risk... the risk is pretty staggering and the odds aren't great. I dunno - if Illyrio had other children I could see it, maybe, but give up an only son? A boy that Illyrio is clearly fond off? I don't feel it.

[Jon AS]

It is not like he could know that Prince Aegon would die in such a manner that he might be able to replace him with his son, so why the pre-emptive secrecy?

We don't know how old YG really is. Tyrion thinks he is younger than he should be, for example.

[Ran]

Giving him up so he can be king of the largest kingdom in the world? I don't know about you, but people have given up their only children for much, much less in the past and even into the present.

[cteresa]

Just to add to this, when Tyrion hears that Aegon took his "advice" about going to Westeros first, he describes it as taking the "bait." I think this lends credence to the theory that Tyrion was trying to lead Griff and Young Griff astray, not help them.

Ah excellent. So Tyrion willfully sends Young Griff off to Westeros, not because he thinks that is the best thing for him, but because of his own reasons. Which are probably two:

- Wants to cause problems in Westeros at once

- Wants no competition in reaching first (or only)

Maia, no, I don´t think he had a fixed plan of how to reach Dany, but Tyrion would gamble on it, no? He would think he would be able to think of a way.

About Illyrio and Young Griff being his son, it seems a very sketchy theory to me. And consider if Illyrion has children (I would not dignify that with *other* children). Putting his own son in mortal danger (and being a contender to the throne of Westeros does not have a high probability of surviving long) without any heirs? Talk about putting all his eggs in one basket!(or the fact he has no visible children might mean he is infertile). And something else to keep in mind - Illyrio and Varys might have spent a lot of time and money in YG, Illyrio might even have grown fond of the boy (spending time with the boy might be essential for him to build an avuncular image), but that does not mean they might not consider him expendable if need be or realistic enough to think his odds of reaching the throne are probably lower than 50% (and that IMO is the meaning of Illyrio´s sadness. Sometimes one gets fond of pawns which later will need to be sacrificated)

[Jon AS]

Ah excellent. So Tyrion willfully sends Young Griff off to Westeros, not because he thinks that is the best thing for him, but because of his own reasons. Which are probably two:

- Wants to cause problems in Westeros at once

- Wants no competition in reaching first (or only)

I'd add a third: he really didn't enjoy the way Illyrio and Connington treated him (for all he knows Illyrio's letter contained instructions to learn what they could from him, then cut his throat and toss him in the river) and enjoyed messing with their plans in whatever small way he could.

[cteresa]

I'd add a third: he really didn't enjoy the way Illyrio and Connington treated him (for all he knows Illyrio's letter contained instructions to learn what they could from him, then cut his throat and toss him in the river) and enjoyed messing with their plans in whatever small way he could.

Yes. Or he does not trust them at all, nor likes the fact they are trying to use him for their purposes(and btw, what and how? I mean, *really* not apparent) and is planning to dump them as soon as possible. But we get the very clear message, facetiously from YG´s own mouth, if you want to conquer the world you better have dragons -> but a bit ahead YG ignores that and goes off to Westeros instead.

And what do you think Dany would have made of YG? I would suspect she would have reacted much more strongly to Rhaegar´s "son" than to Quentyn Martell. But also Dany has dragons. And we have reason to think dragons can TELL if somebody has some Targaryen blood. Does Illyrio realize that when sending him on the way? (but keep in mind, I do not think YG´s survival is of paramount important for those guys´ plans).

And something else : YG and Connington ignore the instructions and advice of Illyrio, they go off in a totally different direction. How are I&V going to react to it? When Varys has Kevan killed, Varys knows Tyrion is very far away and YG is on Westeros. But still the motivation to killing Kevan is " you were threatening to undo all the queen’s good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen’s rule.". Is Kevan´s death an improvisation due to YG´s change of plans? (I think not)

[Raventhal]

One thing you guys forget is that it's impossible for his son to be from the woman who looked like Dany. The whole point of it was that Dany was the motivation. Aegon is older than Dany so it's impossible.

[cteresa]

Where does it say Serra looked like Dany? All I find is that she was nearly as beautiful as Dany

The fat man grew pensive. “Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself.

and that her coloring was light (but not Targaryen-like quite)

Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. “Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her.

[cteresa]

again, sorry. I only clicked once.

[Raventhal]

Where does it say Serra looked like Dany? All I find is that she was nearly as beautiful as Dany

The fat man grew pensive. “Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself.

and that her coloring was light (but not Targaryen-like quite)

Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. “Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her.

Even still. The point is people are claiming that Young Griff was Illyrio by Serra. Your quote just disproves it. Unless he was into toddlers. Young Griff is looked at as like 15 or so by Tyrion. Danny is what 15 or 16 now? And young griff was supposed to be an infant when she was born. So that sounds about right even if it's a year or two off because as a teen there cam be huge difference in age looks because of puberty is random thing.