[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[cteresa]

Septa Lemora is pretty unconventional - the swimming naked and no embarassment in the body thing. I can not see in the series any hints that Ashara had this kind of personality - and it is an unusual thing to expect from a royal waiting lady.

But we know there was an unconventional septa once which had a child with Oberyn - which i really do not think was rape. And I can totally see Prince Oberyn being fascinated by a Septa with that personality and philosophy. One small, very small speculation from the series, is what kind of septa did Oberyn manage to seduce, since we know he seduced one. so yeah, bingo, I think we got it. We shall see anyway.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I'll go crackpot.

If Aegon isn't actually a targ, then the question is, where did he come from? He's not just some random boy from Lys, he needs a mysterious origin. This is GRRM after all. So what do we know about Aegon? He's guarded by an Exiled Lord, A Septa(who's referred to as a Lady), and a Master without a chain. Aside from Duck I think they're all more than they seem.

What do we know about Ashara? We know that she supposedly killed herself by throwing herself into the sea. We know she had a child and was supposed to be in love with Ned. We're told that the child was stillborn and a girl, by Barristan who was half a continent away at the time, and had no reason or pretext to visit Starfell. We have no body and no eye witnesses. Just word of mouth.

Aegon is going to take Storm's End, and he'll lead the charge with Dawn, because he's the son of Ned and Ashara, the next Sword of Mourning.

[Ran]

Hair color problem, though. He has silver-blond hair, Ashara and Ned are dark haired.

[cteresa]

And about "Aegon" being Lemore´s son, there are no hints (from a PoV of a very observing and cynical character) of any similarity in coloring, features or any hint Septa Lemore is maternal towards Aegon. As this theory being circulating for long here, or the idea only showed up after the book?

[Millardkillmoore]

Maybe she's Wylla. With Ned's statement that she was Jon's mother and Edric's support of that idea, I feel that Wylla has to show up eventually.

[Mark3]

Mid-forties (the age Tyrion places Lemore) is also probably too old to be Ashara.

[Blue Steel]

Barristan is going to meet up with her and that's going to be Dany's betrayal for love.

[eleusis]

Hair color problem, though. He has silver-blond hair, Ashara and Ned are dark haired.

Ashara's family members have silver-blonde hair, though, so the recessive Valyrian genes are clearly in her gene pool. We don't know much about Ned and Brandon's family line appearance-wise, except that dark hair is traditionally considered Stark-esque. This could end up being a subversion of our expectations based on the Joffrey deal.

I'm not convinced "Aegon" is Ashara's child, but I will say the idea that they swapped Ashara's Targaryen-looking baby for a dead one and called it a stillbirth is a lot more feasible to me than the idea that Varys foresaw the murder of Elia's children in time to swap out baby Aegon in advance. And there's been an awful lot of talk about how the Daynes have Targaryen-esque Valyrian traits for it to be irrelevant to the story, I think.

[Claireducky]

All the info we have on Lemore, and my notes on what they might mean/significance:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

a septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes. Wears a septa's robe, has dark brown hair.

Septa Lemore had emerged in her white robes, cinched at the waist with a woven belt of seven colors. Her hair flowed loose about her shoulders. Long hair at least shoulder length, does not wear it under a cowl.

though Lemore was not as innocent as she appeared. She had stretch marks on her belly that could only have come from childbirth. Has had at least one child before.

...her smooth skin glowing golden in the morning light. She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye. Possibly olive/tanned skin, maybe indicating some ancestry of Dorne? Past forty, born 260AL or earlier. More handsome than pretty.

Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile. Isn't afraid to flirt.

While Young Griff went off with Septa Lemore to be instructed in the mysteries of the Faith... Obviously knows enough about the Faith to teach it to Young Griff

Septa Lemore had slit each garment apart, then sewn them back together. Can sew.

Lemore was always pleasant company, despite her penchant for scolding him whenever he said something rude about the gods. At least acts pious.

Septa Lemore was praying. The mists muffled the sound of her voice, making it seem small and hushed. Praying when they are in danger, possibly means she really does believe sincerely in the Faith.

'Make no vainglorious boasts, I beg you. Pride is a grievous sin. The stone men were proud as well, and the Shrouded Lord proudest of them all. More pious noises.

'We are sworn to protect you,' Lemore said. She is oathsworn to protect Aegon.

Lemore whirled, trembling. 'Seven save us all.' Another backup of the idea that she does believe what she preaches.

..a curious man might wonder why some sellsword's whelp would need a soiled septa to instruct him in the Faith Just Tyrion's take on her, we don't get her reaction to being called a soiled septa.

"Why do I stink of vinegar?" "Lemore has been washing you with it. Some say it helps prevent the greyscale...It was Lemore who forced the water from your lungs after Griff had pulled you up. You were as cold as ice, and your lips were blue." While everyone else is treating Tyrion like he's going to kill them all with greyscale, she either performed CPR or something requiring a lot of contact to save him. Ditto with giving him vinegar baths. Either she is not afraid of greyscale (maybe she thinks her Faith will protect her), or she is just very selfless.

Lemore emerged on deck with the prince in tow. When she say Tyrion, she rushed across the deck to hug him. More contact with the man who could have the plague.

Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely...Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa? -- More of Tyrion's thoughts, which I put great stock in. He believes she isn't there for money, but that the prince means something to her. Also wonders if she was ever a septa.

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. "What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore. Either Haldon is playing a good part, or he has not been with Aegon as long as Griff and Lemore, and does not know her as anything else but a septa.

"...Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide." Is there more significance to this? Does SHE need to hide her identity?

"We have gone to great lengths to keep Prince Aegon hidden all these years," Lemore reminded him. "The time will come for him to wash his hair and declare himself, I know, but that time is not now. Not to a camp of sellswords." She has been with Aegon and Griff for a long time, maybe since the beginning. She doesn't agree with how things are being done currently.

"...If Hugor's head was worth a lord's honors, how much will Cersei Lannister pay for the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?" She believes Aegon to truly be Aegon.

"The plan was to reveal Prince Aegon only when we reached Queen Daenerys," Lemore was saying. She is trusted enough by Griff to have been in on the plan.

"Illyrio could not have been expected to know that the girl would choose to remain at Slaver's Bay." She defends Illyrio when Griff is bad-mouthing him.

He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that. That he thinks of it has her "task" maybe means that she was brought in by Griff to help take care of Aegon. He does not think of her as an equal or a decision-maker.

He remembered how sweet Lemore looked after her morning swims... She likes to swim, and does it well.

Lady Lemore was with him, garbed once more in the white robes of a septa. Griff thinks of her as LADY Lemore here. Where else in the series have we ever seen a septa referred to as a Lady? They are always called Septa _____. "The robes of a septa" as opposed to "her robes" <-- is this also an indication that she never was a septa?

Related quote about Septas (Doran to Tyene): Your mother was a septa. Oberyn once told me that she read to you in the cradle from the Seven-Pointed Star.

Tyene Sand has blond hair and blue eyes.

------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY

Name: Septa Lemore (once called Lady Lemore in his thoughts when they are on Westeros)

Appearance: Dark brown hair that is at least shoulder-length, and she at least sometimes wears it down. Relatively fit body, shapely, has stretch marks from childbearing on her belly. Skin glows golden in the morning light.

Clothing: Usually a septa's robes, with 7-colored belt and a crystal of the Faith on a necklace. One time- merchant's wife or daughter's clothing (relatively well-to-do, not the clothes of a peasant, nor of a lady).

Skills: Knowledge of the mysteries of the Faith, and supposedly whatever else a Septa is supposed to instruct a child in. Swimming. Sewing. Some medical skills (getting the water from Tyrion's lungs, and using vinegar baths on him).

Personality: Pleasant, not shy about her body (naked swimming), flirts with Tyrion, scolds people for impious words/actions.

Religion: I tend to believe that she truly is pious, or at least TRIES to be, because of the sequence in the Sorrows. When they are threatened, she prays and calls on the Seven. If it were an act, I think her true colors would have shown.

Motivation: Tyrion believes she is not there for gold and that the prince means something to her. Griff says her "task" was to instruct the boy in the Faith. She obviously cares for Young Griff and worries about him being revealed to the Golden Company. She defends Illyrio to Griff when Griff is bad-mouthing him a bit. She truly believes Aegon to be the true Aegon.

History: She appears to have been with Griff and Aegon for a very long time, maybe since the beginning, which would mean since 283AL, or for the last 16 years.

Influence: Some. She is solely responsible for Aegon's instruction in the Faith. Griff trusts her, but does not "require" her approval, so she is not an equal or a decision-maker in this business. That probably rules out her being any sort of blood-relation to Aegon/Young Griff.

Who she truly could be: (includes suggestions by others I've seen)

Lyanna Stark: Most likely not. Ned remembers Lyanna dying in his arms, and she is supposedly buried at Winterfell. Also, the motivation wouldn't make sense if she WERE alive: why abandon her own son to go hare off after another one of Rhaegar's? Also, I totally cannot see Lyanna making a very good septa, or one who would put up meekly with Griff telling her no.

Tyene Sand's mother: A possibility, but the looks kind of go against it: Tyene Sand has blonde hair and blue eyes, and Oberyn was dark. It stands to reason that Tyene's mother had to be blond/blue eyed for her to get those traits. We never see Lemore's eye color, and with Griff and Young Griff dying their hair blue, she always could have dyed her hair dark, I suppose.

Ashara Dayne: Possible. She was close with Elia. Everything we know about her says she died, in 284 or 285 AL (after the Tower of Joy), by throwing herself into the sea (Barristan says after a stillbirth--so there would be stretchmarks if she is alive). No idea if a body was recovered. If there wasn't, she theoretically could have disappeared off to help take care of Aegon-- he would have been 2 or 3 years old at the time. We don't know her hair color. Her nephew Edric has blond hair. She is "tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes." A strike against her is you'd think Tyrion would have noticed those eyes. She might be too young though, having been born in the 260s sometime.

Elia Martell: Can't be. She was seen dead by numerous witnesses. Gregor Clegane admitted to raping and killing her. Besides that, Griff's bossy attitude towards Lemore does not stack up if she were any relation to Young Griff.

What we are looking for: A woman born in Westeros (Tyrion did not notice any foreign accent), before 260AL (she is at least 40). Has had at least 1 child. Has been with Young Griff some time, maybe since 283AL. Has had septa training. Dark brown hair, and possibly golden/olive skinned. More handsome than pretty. Possibly from an area where she would have done a lot of swimming when young (which probably rules out anything north of the Neck). Possibly from a noble family, since Griff thinks of her as Lady Lemore one time when they are back in Westeros.

Ok...go!

[A Time for Wolves]

Don't think she's Ashara. Tyrion would have noticed her purple eyes for sure, like he noticed Aegon's eyes - and besides, Tyrion noticed everything else about her. He wouldn't have missed it if she had purple eyes.

[cklabyrinth]

Don't think she's Ashara. Tyrion would have noticed her purple eyes for sure, like he noticed Aegon's eyes - and besides, Tyrion noticed everything else about her. He wouldn't have missed it if she had purple eyes.

Don't know, man. The eyes are normally the last place I look.

[wolfbird]

Lemore's personality seemed too...shall we say "flirty" for a former noble woman.

[Jem]

Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne. We know Ashara was a brunette via a Barristan Selmy chapter. Tyrion doesn't mention her eyes because he was more interested in other parts of her anatomy. If he said her eyes were brown or green or blue or grey, then fair enough, but the fact that he doesn't mention her eyes AT ALL makes me think that GRRM is hiding something from us.

[cklabyrinth]

Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne. We know Ashara was a brunette via a Barristan Selmy chapter. Tyrion doesn't mention her eyes because he was more interested in other parts of her anatomy. If he said her eyes were brown or green or blue or grey, then fair enough, but the fact that he doesn't mention her eyes AT ALL makes me think that GRRM is hiding something from us.

Also, even if he looked at her eyes, it's possible the color would have appeared different, like he remarked with Aegon's eyes. That, or Aegon's eyes really are that light of a shade of purple and he's just a watered down Targ.

[Faint]

I sort of feel that if the writer mentioned her having violet eyes it would have been a dead giveaway. Then again, it would simply be unrealistic for Tyrion not to comment on them. He commented on Connington's eyes and "Aegon's" as well I honestly have no idea, no matter how much I rack my brains over this issue.

[A Time for Wolves]

I don't know, he notices Shae's dark eyes and Sansa's blue eyes, and eye color is always mentioned with adult women in the series, especially if the woman is seductive. How many times do we read about Cersei's green pools? Sansa's blue Tully eyes? The dark eyes of the Sand Snakes? Even Penny gets an eye color mention.

In light of all that I guess it is strange that we don't seem to know Lemore's eye color - but in that case I would have to accuse GRRM of using a cheap cop-out. In order to hide Lemore's identity as Ashara, he's deliberately made Tyrion fail to notice something that he would have normally noticed. Tyrion is naturally observant, and not just in a lecherous way - he protects himself by being perceptive.

[Claireducky]

I'd *like* for it to be Ashara, but I don't know-- there's some evidence against her we have to consider:

Griff thinks: He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.

Now, "had grown fond" seems to suggest that he may have been indifferent to Lemore at the start of their partnership. Jon Connington not only knew Ashara, he danced with her at the Harrenhal tournament. Granted, we know Griff is probably gay, so that might not count for much.

Griff consistently rides over Lemore's suggestions/objections when they are going to see the Golden Company. She may be trusted with the plan, but she is in no way a decision-maker. Would Connington treat Lady Ashara Dayne so?

[Olenna]

Count me in for Lemore = Ashara. Ashara supposedly committed suicide by throwing herself into a lake, so if she survived she had to be a helluva swimmer to get somewhere far away enough that she wouldn't be recognized. The description of Lemore's swimming prowess is suggestive, especially considering that we haven't seen any other 40ish woman swimming in the series.

What's harder to fathom (unless I'm missing something obvious) is why Ashara Dayne would participate in this risky venture. Why would you fake your own death and spend your whole life incognito just in order to put someone else's kid on the throne? If Ashara = Lemore, what's in it for her?

[Dragonfish]

I find it interesting that George leads us to believe that Ashara is blond (given that every Dayne we've seen so far is blond), then lets us know late in the book, long after we've met Lemore, that Ashara was actually a brunette. Makes me think that he wanted us to imagine her one way so that we wouldn't think Lemore was Ashara when we met her.

[A Time for Wolves]

I'd *like* for it to be Ashara, but I don't know-- there's some evidence against her we have to consider:

Griff thinks: He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.

The most important thing to take away from that is: if Jon Connington has known Ashara since Harrenhal, why on earth would he call her "Lemore" in his head? He would think about her as "Ashara". This isn't like Arya, Sansa and Theon, who have tried to mentally convince themselves that they have a new name in order to survive. Connington doesn't need to pretend that Ashara is Lemore in his internal thoughts.