[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[hagga on her hill]

Griff consistently rides over Lemore's suggestions/objections when they are going to see the Golden Company. She may be trusted with the plan, but she is in no way a decision-maker. Would Connington treat Lady Ashara Dayne so?

Griff seems to be something of a sexist. When he reminisces about Rhaegar's romances, he doesn't think that gosh, he wished Rhaegar had been into boys; instead, he trashes on both Elia and iirc Lyanna, and specifically goes off on Elia for being "unworthy".

Also, Lemore doesn't seem particularly meek or cowed by Connington. She struck me more as a very laid-back person who dealt with Connington's Daddy Knows Best attitude by blithely ignoring it. She doesn't make waves, but she didn't seem too intimidated to me.

I don't know if she's Ashara, but I would be pleasantly surprised if it were true. She's one of many princesses in the tower in these books, and everyone who's talked about her so far (Barristan included) has cast her uncritically as that particular stereotype of femininity-- the tragic maiden done wrong. I would be much happier with an unconventional Dornishwoman who has a consensual affair at Harrenhal (my money's on Eddard), and then went on to hang out naked on a pole barge while giving a young prince his education.

[Pipsmom]

I'm in the Lemore=Ashara camp. This thought has been haunting me from the moment Barristan started reminiscing about how he loved Ashara and her dark brown hair. It smelled of clues more than just pointless musings of an old man. Ashara's only purpose in the story so far was to give a possible (but not probable) identity to Jon Snow's mother for Catelyn to fret over. Why bring her up this late in the game if she isn't going to figure somehow in the future story?

We don't have a lot of facts concerning Ashara to go on to determine if she could fit the Lemore character. We know Prince Rhaegar's closest friend was her older brother Arthur Dayne, along with Jon Connington. If Varys foresaw the danger to Aegon, who better to enlist in protecting the heir than a Dayne and Jon C. Connington was probably already in exile in the Free Cities at the end of Robert's Rebellion. Ashara was one of Elia's companions at Court. I think she would have been willing to do Varys bidding in this matter out of respect for her brother's relationship with Rhaegar and her friendship with Elia. Perhaps the idea of raising her friend's boy brought her some comfort after losing her own baby. In addition, if she had in fact loved Ned Stark, she also knew she had no future with him after he married Catelyn.

I'm in agreement with the opinion that Tyrion's failure to comment on Lemore's eye color can be attributed more to GRRM's desire to not completely give away her identity. I do trust Tyrion's well-trained eye to correctly estimate a woman's age, however. He puts Lemore at "over 40", but not "well over forty". Could Ashara be 40? That is unknowable at this point, but I think it is possible based on some speculative assumptions. We know Rhaegar was 24 when he was killed. If Arthur Dayne was the same age as Rhaegar, and Ashara was 1 year younger than Arthur (we know he was older than her, but not by how much), then she would be 40 in the current year.

Or perhaps Lemore is just some character enlisted by Connington to help round out Young Griff's education and Ashara putting in an appearance in Barristan's brain is just as random as it initially appeared. However, I am seeing shades of a future dramatic reunion between Barristan and Lemore/Ashara when their respective Targs finally meet.

[Olenna]

I see what you're saying, A Time for Wolves, and I agree that Lemore doesn't have quite the presence and grandeur that readers expect of Ashara Dayne, but it's worth considering the possibility that Ashara's beauty/charisma/force of personality have been exaggerated by the mythology surrounding those events. Maybe she's more ordinary than we have been led to believe.

Regarding the purported correlation between risk-taking and assertive leading, there are other examples in the series of people who take risks and make sacrifices and have a strong sense of mission who aren't leader types. Davos and Meera, in particular, are content to play second fiddle, and I suspect Ned would rather have been a follower than a leader. And the Sand Snakes don't have much initiative either--they're all vengeful, badass ladies but they pretty much do as Doran says, even after their dad is murdered. So it wouldn't be that surprising if Ashara was content to play a secondary role.

Another clue that Lemore = Ashara is the fact that she's fine with being naked in public, which is more plausible coming from a sexually liberated Dornishwoman than anyone else.

[A Time for Wolves]

I see what you're saying, A Time for Wolves, and I agree that Lemore doesn't have quite the presence and grandeur that readers expect of Ashara Dayne, but it's worth considering the possibility that Ashara's beauty, courage, and charisma have been exaggerated by the mythology surrounding those events. Maybe she's more...ordinary than we have been led to believe.

Regarding the purported correlation between risk-taking and assertive leading, there are other examples in the series of people who take risks and make sacrifices and have a strong sense of mission who aren't leader types. Davos and Meera, in particular, are content to play second fiddle, and I suspect Ned would rather have been a follower than a leader. And the Sand Snakes don't have much initiative either--they're all vengeful, badass ladies but they pretty much do as Doran says, even after their dad is murdered. So it wouldn't be that surprising if Ashara was content to play a secondary role.

Another clue that Lemore = Ashara is the fact that she's fine with being naked in public, which is more plausible coming from a sexually liberated Dornishwoman than anyone else.

All good points, especially the "Ashara's legend is exaggerated" point. IMO there are a lot of pedestals that need tumbling, starting with Ashara, Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Tomorrow I'm probably going re-read the Tyrion chapters to see how Lemore is portrayed again.

[Gullible]

First time poster, anyways, in regards to the being able to sew, a jaime chapter in affc (i think) mentioned jeyne ripped her clothes or something like that on purpose in mourning of robb. Dont know if that brings anything to light, but thought id throw that out there.

[Olenna]

I don't know if she's Ashara, but I would be pleasantly surprised if it were true. She's one of many princesses in the tower in these books, and everyone who's talked about her so far (Barristan included) has cast her uncritically as that particular stereotype of femininity-- the tragic maiden done wrong. I would be much happier with an unconventional Dornishwoman who has a consensual affair at Harrenhal (my money's on Eddard), and then went on to hang out naked on a pole barge while giving a young prince his education.

Yes! It would rock my world if the mythologized tragic Ophelia character turned out to be a fun-loving gal who lived to a ripe old age with the nice old knight who was carrying a torch for her. Maybe she'll even get him to lighten up a little. LemoreAshara/Barristan may be my new favorite ship!

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Ashara was a lady-in-waiting to Elia, and her brother was Rheagar's best friend. Moreover, she'd been "dishonored" by a Stark (probably Brandon) at Harrenhal and had possibly borne his bastard daughter. So she can stay in Starfall and live out a fairly bleak, lonely life of being shunned, or she can fake her own death and go off to help the supposed son of her own close friend, and her brother's BFF.

Disagree. When Jojen is recounting his dad's sojourn as a mystery knight at Harrenhal he says something along the lines of "the silent wolf sat at the table while the lady with purple eyes danced. The laughing/wild wolf had to ask the lady to dance with his shy brother."

Silent Wolf = Ned

Laughing Wolf = Brandon

[Pipsmom]

The most important thing to take away from that is: if Jon Connington has known Ashara since Harrenhal, why on earth would he call her "Lemore" in his head? He would think about her as "Ashara". This isn't like Arya, Sansa and Theon, who have tried to mentally convince themselves that they have a new name in order to survive. Connington doesn't need to pretend that Ashara is Lemore in his internal thoughts.

I would guess that after calling her "Lemore" every day for the past 15-16 years, he only thinks of her as Lemore, if she is in fact Ashara.

[nategator]

Lemore = Wylla. :thumbsup:

[Olenna]

Lemore is NOT Wylla. Wylla was a peasant. Lemore is obviously highly educated. Given the limited educational opportunities for women in Westeros, she pretty much has to be a noblewoman.

[CFdS]

Wasn't Ashara Dayne described as one of the (if not THE) most beautiful women of Westeros? Even after 40 years an expert like Tyrion would not describe such a woman as "more handsome than pretty".

Personally I would see Lemore=Ashara as a cheap device (even cheaper as all the idiot balls grrm likes to hand around), here role as Ned's tragic love was sufficient I think.

[Olenna]

Wasn't Ashara Dayne described as one of the (if not THE) most beautiful women of Westeros? Even after 40 years an expert like Tyrion would not describe such a woman as "more handsome than pretty".

Eh, well, a lot can change in 20 years. We saw that with Cersei, who was also a great beauty at one time but whose looks are ridiculed as she walks naked through King's Landing.

Remember that this is the Middle Ages. People age faster. After a life of roaming and seafaring, she'd be sunburned and wrinkling.

Also, we only ever hear about Ashara's looks through the misty romantic haze of mythology and auld lang syne, where women are always stupendously beautiful. I can picture 100 years in the future of Westeros when people will take Brienne's epithet, "the Beauty," at face value. This is a realistic story that features a lot more ugly, average, and attractive people than beautiful ones. The only blindingly beautiful people we've encountered are Sansa, Dany, Loras, Jaime, Val(?), and Cersei. And note that several of these people have lost their looks due to misfortune or aging.

[needle]

What's harder to fathom (unless I'm missing something obvious) is why Ashara Dayne would participate in this risky venture. Why would you fake your own death and spend your whole life incognito just in order to put someone else's kid on the throne? If Ashara = Lemore, what's in it for her?

If Aegon is not Aegon, but her child ( with Ned, Brandon, or whoever), it makes sense. I don't buy false Aegon. So if he's not Aegon, who is he? blonde and purple eyes - sounds like a Dayne. ( Why else would we have the whole Edric Dayne looking like a Targ set up in the first few books?) Connington would have been told it's Rhaegar's child, but Ashara obviously knows it's her kid. With Varys and possibly Doran Martell pulling the strings - I'm sure Doran had two or three plots on the go, it's inconceivable the only plan he had was to send Quentyn off with a 6 guy escort after twenty years of planning.

Ok, there are a tonne of holes in this theory and someone will come and tell me the dates are all wrong, but I thought it worth chucking out there..

[Arthanis]

keyword:

"he wash his head"

Boy may not have targarien hairs...

[cteresa]

I think you people are obsessed with Ashara. I get the why: missing body is like smashed head on the baby´s head. There are possibilities. But, and going over stuff I already said on the other thread

- Lemore is a septa. For Ashara to became one, she would need to train, and take oaths.

- Ashara had remarkable Targaryen eyes. So much Barristan thinks Dany looks like her daughter (that is a clue IMO. I just do not know of what). Tyrion who is noticing everything does not notice that or any ressemblance with YG, or any maternal relation.

- Lemore´s views on body and body shame are unconventional. Particularly unconventional for a high-born lady who was a royal lady in waiting. It seems a stretch to assume so. OTOH we do know there was an unconventional septa once who had an affair with Oberyn.

[Talleyrand]

Well it can't be Lyanna seeing as Ned remembers her dying. Plus Ned was only 36 when he died and Lemore is supposed to be past 40 even though Lyanna is five years younger

[Claireducky]

For those suggesting that Young Griff is Lemore's child: I think I covered that in the initial post and why I don't think it can be. If she were the mother of YG, Griff would not treat her as a hireling. She would have some say in the decision-making process. The ONLY way I'd consider this is if you postulate that Griff doesn't know Lemore is the mom.

[OutSider]

Ageon is a fake and adding the war of the roses elemanets i think he's like a Perkin Warbeck or a Lambert Simnel

with Dorne playing the role of Margaret of York.

[Julia Eagles]

Lemore = Wylla

How does everyone know that Lemore cannot be Wylla? There's no mention ofher or her duties outside of a wetnurse. I know wetnurses can't be of noble birth but if she was born and raied as a servant in a castle she would have access to a septa/septon and a maester, making her faith and ability to read believable. If she came from a family of stewards like the Pooles she might be included in lessons like Jeyne did. LIke come on, Wylla has seen more of Westeros than some lords, she's been to Dorne and possibly Winterfell as Jon's nurse. She's apparently been around the sisters too.

[JayDubya]

I don't think she's either Ashara, Lyanna or Wylla.

It doesn't make sense for her to be lowborn - too well-educated, others mentally refer to her as "Lady".

It doesn't make sense for her to be Lyanna, since Lyanna is dead.

It also doesn't make sense for her to be Ashara - Lemore is not pretty enough, if she had violet eyes, it should have been mentioned, she's a bit too old, and Lemore is not treated nearly as deferentially by Connington as she would if he knew she were really Ashara.

Of the three, Ashara makes the most sense, so if I'm wrong, that's my out :)

My suspicion is that she's either a) a red herring - a fun little mystery for us to distract ourselves with, or B) she's someone else, another friend of Elia's or somesuch, who would be willing to help out with baby Aegon (fake or real); one that we can figure out (Like Alleras) if we find enough clues.