[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[nikkodemus]

Ashara makes some sense if you allow GRRM some room for cheese. He uses fake-outs continuously. I can see him having Tyrion ignore her eye-colour and making her a master swimmer and professional high-diver.

She's in the thick of it.

I count her as having Brandon's kid, (maintaining Ned's honour), he goes douche on her so that Factor 1.

Ned and Co, kill her brother, (questionably - Ned was losing until Howland Reed and what? A 2 on one? Don't remember/know.) That's factor 2

Daynes are Targ loyalists, mentioned to support either Darkstar, Edric, Ashara - the only Daynes around, or bolster Dornish loyalty to Egg6. Factor 3

Lyanna should be a tree-hugger not a fake septa. But we know anything about Dayne religion view?

She was close with Elia and Rhaegar. Revenge Factor 4

It would make for an interesting stand-off, her with Aegon if he's real, and Barristan the dude who still pines after her sworn to Dany. Kudos if there's an Egg vs Dany squabble that causes Barristan to betray Dany (one treason for love, not sure how that goes).

And even if she is Ashara, Connington is described as arrogant, and he doesn't really count anyone's opinion as worth too much of a shit. He's a lord in charge of strategy, she's a lady in charge of "womanly business". 2 different portfolios. Their relationship could be like that.

Cheesy, but likely. If Lyanna or Elia aren't dead, that would be too lame to salvage, and Ashara's the most storyline essential woman GRRM could revive.

Why bring up the Barristan/Ashara/B?Stark triangle at this point? No one really cares about Barry outside of his relation to Dany. Making him a POV is a big move. It's either to continue the Meereen intrigue (sarcasm on intrigue) or to play the Kingsguard guy with questionable loyalties. (Or king arthur reborn, what was up with the round table?)

Lemore is kinda 'wanton'? (what's the word?) Ashara doesn't sound too 'docile'. She does have a bastard by B?Stark.

Her dislike for boldness could be a reaction to Rhaegar riding out on the trident and getting killed? Her bro being the Morning Star and getting killed? The likelihood of YG riding out and getting killed too?

Her questionable piousness, a new angle she's trying in repentance for her previous 'wayward?' lifestyle? (Pulling at fictional straws).

[lokisnow]

I say she is Ashara or she is Iron Born (CPR, after all, is a trick they know well). The Iron Born would also fit with her being away from westeros and her saucy attitude (Asha esque) Ashara fits best, simply because I have no idea who it might fit from the Isles.

[corbon]

I don't buy the Ashara=Lemore. Ashara had simular eye color to the Targs if not the exact shade. I believe Tyrion would notice her eye color,

Umm, hello? Tyrion doesn't mention (think of) her eyes at all, which is a sort of clue in itself. We normally get pretty decent descriptions that include eye colour.

Fact is, his eyes are not on her eyes, generally.

And the whole 'not pretty enough' thing? Ridiculous!

First, we don't have any description of young Ashara as being outstandingly beautiful (or am I wrong?), just basically attractive and popular with the men. A little beauty with a lot of character and charm can go a lot further then a great deal of lifeless beauty, and we have seen Lemore is clearly a woman who draws men, even as an middle aged septa.

Second, some types of youthful beauty are ageless, and some are not. Some fade to relative ugliness, some fade to 'handsome-ness' and some don't fade but grow.

We simply don't have enough info to claim Lemore can't be, or even is unlikely to be, Ashara. Everything we do know about her tallies very well with Ashara. Noble, needs to hide, in with plans/highly connected, very attractive even at 40ish, right hair colour (even though that could be died).

Even the little things like being a strong swimmer connect up with Ashara.

But still, nothing is certain about her identity. She might be Ashara, she might be Tyene's mum, she might be nobody important.

[mistrad]

Yeah, Tyrion's description is notable by its specific exclusion of her eye color. He mentions eye color with virtually every other woman he is involved with.

Ashara's beauty is relative...not to mention if it is her, jumping into the ocean and a couple decades in the Free cities may have aged her some.

But ultimately, it is all a guess.

[BastardSon]

Why bring up the Barristan/Ashara/B?Stark triangle at this point? No one really cares about Barry outside of his relation to Dany. Making him a POV is a big move. It's either to continue the Meereen intrigue (sarcasm on intrigue) or to play the Kingsguard guy with questionable loyalties. (Or king arthur reborn, what was up with the round table?)

It makes a lot of sense to bring it up now, if you look at back story. Martin loves to give his characters back story to flesh them out and give insights to their emotions and motivations. Almost every character has memory's that don't have a profound and hidden meaning. Also it ties in to the whole R+L=J thing if true. Also Barristan's story in my opinion discredits the Lemore = Ashara theory more than supports it. You can't take his description of her hair as proof then ignore the fact that he says Dany has the same eyes. And Tyrion just happens to not notice Lemore's eyes then comments on how Young Griff has Targ eyes, albeit sometimes they shift to blue.

[Winterborn]

LALALA I CAN'T HEAR HEAR YOU LALALA

I refuse to believe that Barristan "Come at me, Bro!" Selmy would ever dishonor himself.

His love is a pure and courtly love, based in chivalry and chaste knightly virtues. He only loved Ashara Dayne from afar, obviously.

BRB, I'm going back to making a list of reasons why Barristan is the most badass knight who ever lived, you guys just carry on with your silly theories of betrayal that will never happen. haha.

hahaha...I mean, c'mon, would GRR Martin set him up to be this great, loveable hero just so he could blindside us with something like that...haha...ha...heh...eh

OMG THIS TOTALLY GOING TO HAPPEN, ISN'T IT?!?! 'runs away weeping and wailing in despair'

[The Human Abstract]

LALALA I CAN'T HEAR HEAR YOU LALALA

I refuse to believe that Barristan "Come at me, Bro!" Selmy would ever dishonor himself.

His love is a pure and courtly love, based in chivalry and chaste knightly virtues. He only loved Ashara Dayne from afar, obviously.

BRB, I'm going back to making a list of why Barristan is the most badass knight who ever lived, you guys just carry on with your silly theories of betrayal that will never happen. haha.

hahaha...I mean, c'mon, would GRR Martin wouldn't set him up to be this great, loveable hero just so he could blindside us with something like that...haha...ha...heh...eh

OMG THIS TOTALLY GOING TO HAPPEN, ISN'T IT?!?! 'runs away weeping and wailing in despair'

To be honest, I was sort of enjoying Barristan's ability to remain both good and ethical into his old age too. Usually characters in this series are forced to abandon one or the other.

[The Faceless Bard]

To be honest, I was sort of enjoying Barristan's ability to remain both good and ethical into his old age too. Usually characters in this series are forced to abandon one or the other.

Selmy's biggest regret is Ashara... if it is in fact her, and they do in fact meet, I would swallow Selmy treasoning his duty to Dany for his love for Ashara.

Selmy deserves redemption for being dutiful in long years of service!

[The Human Abstract]

Selmy's biggest regret is Ashara... if it is in fact her, and they do in fact meet, I would swallow Selmy treasoning his duty to Dany for his love for Ashara.

Selmy deserves redemption for being dutiful in long years of service!

To be honest, I always place these matters of the heart and soul over ethics myself. I actually think it's funny people are so perpetually concerned about Jon Snow breaking his precious oaths. If he has a reason out of love, I am completely on board.

However, I was merely enjoying the fact that circumstances allowed Selmy to maintain himself for so long in his present .. er... "Lawful Good" condition. Refreshing that it *can* happen. ;)

[Olenna]

Selmy's biggest regret is Ashara... if it is in fact her, and they do in fact meet, I would swallow Selmy treasoning his duty to Dany for his love for Ashara.

He wouldn't see it as treason. He would see it as supporting the lawful heir, Aegon. This would allow him to go after Ashara AND keep his self-respect intact.

[Inn at the Crossroads]

"...Septa’s robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us.” She turned back to Prince Aegon. “You are not the only one who must needs hide.”

Given this quote, I think it's fairly clear that Lemore is le'more than she seems! Sorry, couldn't help it. :)

But in all seriousness, she seems very devout. Have we seen any characters elsewhere in earlier books who were notably devout and would have a reason to hide?

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Lyanna Stark: Most likely not. Ned remembers Lyanna dying in his arms, and she is supposedly buried at Winterfell. Also, the motivation wouldn't make sense if she WERE alive: why abandon her own son to go hare off after another one of Rhaegar's? Also, I totally cannot see Lyanna making a very good septa, or one who would put up meekly with Griff telling her no.

I know it is a fan favorite theory, but it has never been proven that Jon is R&L. Actually, if I recall, someone put forth another candidate for Jon's mother.

Well, if you want a wild fan theory, it is Lyanna protecting her son.

[Spring Bass]

I'm not sure about the Ashara = Lemore theory, but I'm slowly re-reading the book on Kindle for PC, taking notes as I go. The whole "40-ish with stretch marks" does seem suspicious to me, especially since we know that GRRM loves to make all those little connections everywhere.

I personally still think Young Griff/Aegon is Illyrio's son by Serra (if he's a fraud), but it would be hilarious if he was Ashara/Lemore's son by Brandon, or better yet Ned. That would be incredibly ironic: Ned's supposed bastard Jon would be Rhaegar's real son, while Rhaegar's supposed real son would actually be Ned's bastard. GRRM loves irony.

[Ser Frank Haven]

She was Ned's true love

[Dragonfish]

I personally still think Young Griff/Aegon is Illyrio's son by Serra (if he's a fraud), but it would be hilarious if he was Ashara/Lemore's son by Brandon, or better yet Ned. That would be incredibly ironic: Ned's supposed bastard Jon would be Rhaegar's real son, while Rhaegar's supposed real son would actually be Ned's bastard. GRRM loves irony.

That would be interesting, but the main problem with this theory is that Ned and Ashara are both dark-haired, while Aegon is silver-haired.

[Sword in the Morning]

Eagerly I wished the morrow; - vainly I had sought to borrow

From my books surcease of sorrow - sorrow for the lost Lenore -

For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels named Lenore -

Nameless here for evermore.

Clearly, Lemore is the secret identity of Lenore, the long lost love of the speaker in Poe's "The Raven."

Why is she lost to him?

She crossed the narrow sea to help raise Young Griff, that's why.

[Spring Bass]

That would be interesting, but the main problem with this theory is that Ned and Ashara are both dark-haired, while Aegon is silver-haired.

I know, which is why I think it's a crackpot theory. Most likely he's Illyrio's son, or the actual Aegon.

[DemiNymph]

duplicate post please delete

[DemiNymph]

I'm leaning towards Ashara Dayne as well. Why make so much mention of this character otherwise?

Super Crackpot Theory - Lemore is Lyanna Stark. Hey, the hair colour fits... and maybe she aged a lot when she gave up her baby and Rhaegar died. And maybe Ned promised her to take care of Jon and keep her secret that she's not dead because she didn't want to marry Robert. And the real Lightbringer is in her tomb in Winterfell, otherwise, why build a tomb for her as she wasn't supposed to have it? The nude swimming fits into what we know of LS's character, in that, she is wild.</div><div>

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

[howland_reed]

I don't think it can be Lyanna cause if I recall, in GoT, Ned brought Lyanna's dead body to be buried in Winterfell. There'd be a lot more witnesses to attest to that.

Ashara sounds right but that just makes me curious as to what part she's playing with Aegon, and why a Septa?

Also, thought I'd add, in Selmy's PoV, he mentions Ashara's baby was stillborn, and in Tyrion's early Rhoyne PoV, he notices Lemore's stretchmarks from pregnancy. We all know GRRM wouldn't put two connecting dots like this for no reason.