[ADWD SPOILERS] Tyrion 4

[Xray the Enforcer]

A discussion of the fourth Bran TYRION chapter. Do not discuss events from later in the book.

The dangers of cut-and-paste. :blush:

[cklabyrinth]

A discussion of the fourth Bran chapter. Do not discuss events from later in the book.

Nicely done here with Tyrion beating the halfmaester at cyvasse and leaving it very ambiguous about the "birth of kings" line. Griff and Young Griff are obviously more than they seem, but I'm struggling to figure out who they could be. It seems clear that one of them is the king Tyrion mentions, but...

[Isgrimner]

I was kind of irritated that we didn't get to see the full scene regarding the "secret" Tyrion won from his pov. I think I know what it is. I would say Young Griff is more important than old Griff, just due to the way Ilyrio asked about the "boy" when the met up with the halmaester and Duck. Didn't Tryion mention that young Griff's eyes looked almost violent in certain angles? Don't have time to look it up right now. Also, if the hair is being dyed blue, is it really just to cover up another color, perhaps silver?

[Pipsmom]

Nicely done here with Tyrion beating the halfmaester at cyvasse and leaving it very ambiguous about the "birth of kings" line. Griff and Young Griff are obviously more than they seem, but I'm struggling to figure out who they could be. It seems clear that one of them is the king Tyrion mentions, but...

I would like to reply to your comment but think it is in the wrong section. It's a bit confusing, but I think the way it works is if you want to comment on Tyrion 4, you would post under Davos 2. I think it is set up to post up to the Chapter title, so if you have read Tyrion 4, but not Davos 2, you would post under Davos 2. Anyway, I will post my comments on Tyrion 4 chapter under the Davos 2 thread, if that is incorrect I'm sure someone will let me know. I wish my hardcopy would get delivered, it's a real pain to check chapter titles with my Kindle.

[The Evil Hat]

In Tyrion IV, it's assumed you've read up to and through Tyrion IV. Nothing farther. Davos II assumes you've ALSO read Davos II.

[Isgrimner]

I would like to reply to your comment but think it is in the wrong section. It's a bit confusing, but I think the way it works is if you want to comment on Tyrion 4, you would post under Davos 2. I think it is set up to post up to the Chapter title, so if you have read Tyrion 4, but not Davos 2, you would post under Davos 2. Anyway, I will post my comments on Tyrion 4 chapter under the Davos 2 thread, if that is incorrect I'm sure someone will let me know. I wish my hardcopy would get delivered, it's a real pain to check chapter titles with my Kindle.

I think going by the way they handled Bran 2, with XRay the mod also posting in that chapter, they were posting about events that actually happened in that chapter, so I assume that that means its ok to post about what happens through the end of the chapter in the heading.

[cklabyrinth]

I was kind of irritated that we didn't get to see the full scene regarding the "secret" Tyrion won from his pov. I think I know what it is. I would say Young Griff is more important than old Griff, just due to the way Ilyrio asked about the "boy" when the met up with the halmaester and Duck. Didn't Tryion mention that young Griff's eyes looked almost violent in certain angles? Don't have time to look it up right now. Also, if the hair is being dyed blue, is it really just to cover up another color, perhaps silver?

That's kind of what I was thinking, him being a Targaryen, but the only suspect I could think of at the time was a Blackfyre descendant, but it was mentioned in another chapter that the last one had died many years earlier. He may end up being the Aegon that was supposedly killed in King's Landing, though. If so, who would that make Griff? Probably not a Targaryen, just someone important to protect Aegon, with his hair dyed the same color for continuity?

I would like to reply to your comment but think it is in the wrong section. It's a bit confusing, but I think the way it works is if you want to comment on Tyrion 4, you would post under Davos 2. I think it is set up to post up to the Chapter title, so if you have read Tyrion 4, but not Davos 2, you would post under Davos 2. Anyway, I will post my comments on Tyrion 4 chapter under the Davos 2 thread, if that is incorrect I'm sure someone will let me know. I wish my hardcopy would get delivered, it's a real pain to check chapter titles with my Kindle.

That does sound confusing... I can't remember the chapter number for one character without tabbing back through the books counting, much less two.

[Ophilia]

That's kind of what I was thinking, him being a Targaryen, but the only suspect I could think of at the time was a Blackfyre descendant, but it was mentioned in another chapter that the last one had died many years earlier. He may end up being the Aegon that was supposedly killed in King's Landing, though. If so, who would that make Griff? Probably not a Targaryen, just someone important to protect Aegon, with his hair dyed the same color for continuity?

That does sound confusing... I can't remember the chapter number for one character without tabbing back through the books counting, much less two.

Lurker for years and years and years, going back to the ezboard. Finally coming out of my shell with this book!

My first thought was that Griff could be Jon Connington. Tyrion makes a comment about a griffin, which he reacts pretty angrily to. IIRC, he was still young during Robert's Rebellion, so he would be about the right age, and he was exiled to the free cities by Aerys. According to the Wiki, Jaime says he drank himself to death in AFFC, but rumors are rumors in this series.

[Pipsmom]

A discussion of the fourth Bran chapter. Do not discuss events from later in the book.

I was going by this opening post by board moderator, but if that's wrong I'll repost here. I am feeling rather stupid not being able to figure this out.

I did post my comments about Tyrion 4 under the Davos 2 thread.

[Pipsmom]

This is what I'd posted under Davos 2, but consensus seems to be this is the correct location.

I have some very strong feelings about the true identities of Griff and Young Griff. I suspect Griff is actually Ser Red Ronnet, the Knight of Griffin's Roost. There are several hints to this:

1. Red roots showing in his hair and eyebrows where they have grown out under the blue dye, Ser Ronnet's hair is red.

2. Demeanor of a knight, not a sellsword.

3. His relation to Lord Jon Connington (Ser Ronnet's father was Lord Connington's cousin)

Lord Connington is the link between Ser Ronnet and who I think Young Griff is - namely Aegon Targaryen, supposedly dead son of Prince Rhaegar and Elia.

1. Lord Connington was a friend of Prince Rhaegar, and also Hand to King Aerys II. He could have been in place to switch the infant Aegon with another and spirit him away, keeping him hidden with the help of Varys and Illyrio, probably in Tyrosh since young Griff says his "mother" was a Lady of Tyrosh and that's why he dyes his hair blue.

2. Griff is intent on thoroughly educating Young Griff, in fighting skills as well as history, languages, math etc. All skills a young king would need.

3. His blue-dyed hair possibly conceals a head of Targ sliver

4. Tyrion estimates his age at 15-16, same as Aegon would be.

The biggest clue, IMO, is the secret Tyrion learns from Haldon after winning the cyvasse game. When Tyrion sees the giant turtle -Old Man of the River - he thinks to himself "Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of a king". He knows the identity of Young Griff.

I think they are taking Young Griff to Dany to take his place at her side as her nephew and rightful King (if you think Targs are still the rightful rulers of Westeros). I don't think Young Griff has any idea of his true identity yet.

If Young Griff turns out to be Aegon, I would expect him to be one head of the dragon and not even that surprised if he in fact is the Prince that was Promised, as Rhaegar believed. That is pure speculation however.

[bac5665]

This is what I'd posted under Davos 2, but consensus seems to be this is the correct location.

I have some very strong feelings about the true identities of Griff and Young Griff. I suspect Griff is actually Ser Red Ronnet, the Knight of Griffin's Roost. There are several hints to this:

1. Red roots showing in his hair and eyebrows where they have grown out under the blue dye, Ser Ronnet's hair is red.

2. Demeanor of a knight, not a sellsword.

3. His relation to Lord Jon Connington (Ser Ronnet's father was Lord Connington's cousin)

Lord Connington is the link between Ser Ronnet and who I think Young Griff is - namely Aegon Targaryen, supposedly dead son of Prince Rhaegar and Elia.

1. Lord Connington was a friend of Prince Rhaegar, and also Hand to King Aerys II. He could have been in place to switch the infant Aegon with another and spirit him away, keeping him hidden with the help of Varys and Illyrio, probably in Tyrosh since young Griff says his "mother" was a Lady of Tyrosh and that's why he dyes his hair blue.

2. Griff is intent on thoroughly educating Young Griff, in fighting skills as well as history, languages, math etc. All skills a young king would need.

3. His blue-dyed hair possibly conceals a head of Targ sliver

4. Tyrion estimates his age at 15-16, same as Aegon would be.

The biggest clue, IMO, is the secret Tyrion learns from Haldon after winning the cyvasse game. When Tyrion sees the giant turtle -Old Man of the River - he thinks to himself "Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of a king". He knows the identity of Young Griff.

I think they are taking Young Griff to Dany to take his place at her side as her nephew and rightful King (if you think Targs are still the rightful rulers of Westeros). I don't think Young Griff has any idea of his true identity yet.

If Young Griff turns out to be Aegon, I would expect him to be one head of the dragon and not even that surprised if he in fact is the Prince that was Promised, as Rhaegar believed. That is pure speculation however.

I'm reminded strongly of a certain fiddler from The Mystery Knight. It could be nothing, but the whole feel of the crew feels similar to those with Jon the Fiddler.

[Ophilia]

I have some very strong feelings about the true identities of Griff and Young Griff. I suspect Griff is actually Ser Red Ronnet, the Knight of Griffin's Roost. There are several hints to this:

1. Red roots showing in his hair and eyebrows where they have grown out under the blue dye, Ser Ronnet's hair is red.

2. Demeanor of a knight, not a sellsword.

3. His relation to Lord Jon Connington (Ser Ronnet's father was Lord Connington's cousin)

Jaime talks to Ronnet in AFFC (punches him at Harrenhal for how he was talking about Brienne). With the overlapping timelines, Griff can't be Ronnet. I'm sticking by my thought that this is actually Jon, especially after Tyrion's thought that Griff is lying about not being a lord.

I think they are taking Young Griff to Dany to take his place at her side as her nephew and rightful King (if you think Targs are still the rightful rulers of Westeros). I don't think Young Griff has any idea of his true identity yet.

If Young Griff turns out to be Aegon, I would expect him to be one head of the dragon and not even that surprised if he in fact is the Prince that was Promised, as Rhaegar believed. That is pure speculation however.

We've already had a reference to the mummer's dragon. Could they be presenting Young Griff as Aegon, and it doesn't actually turn out to be true?

[Pipsmom]

Ophilia I agree with you, Ronnet would be too young, I was thinking he was the best candidate assuming Lord Connington was actually dead. If he isn't dead Connington would be the obvious choice, would be the right age and could easily take the infant Aegon off into exile. I don't think there was ever a reference to Lord Connington having red hair (that I remember) but it wouldn't be a big leap to assume it was a family trait he shared with his cousin Ser Ronnet.

I really hope if Young Griff is revealed as Aegon he doesn't turn out to be an imposter, but you could be right there also. Dany was warned not to trust the lion and the griffin.

(I messed up posting your quote so just took it out)

[Aganerral]

I really hope if Young Griff is revealed as Aegon he doesn't turn out to be an imposter, but you could be right there also. Dany was warned not to trust the lion and the griffin.

(I messed up posting your quote so just took it out)

The thing about that bothers me about this warning is that Tyrion seems like he might actually want to help Dany. Granted, for his own reasons (to make his family suffer) but from what we can see, he's not going to her with any ill intent towards her or schemes of his own in play as opposed to Illyrio/the Griffs, Victarion, Quentyn. Granted, Quaithe's warning could refer to events far down the road, but Quaithe might be playing her own game and have her own reasons for not wanting Dany to trust them.

[Sand Viper]

I posted here my theory about a N+A=J / R+L=A switch.

Having now read this chapter, I would revise my candidate for R+L.

I would now suggest that R+L=Aegon (young Griff). Lemore is a candidate for Ashara (Tyrion notessigns she has borne children - I don't think her appearance has been described yet other than that she is attractive).

So Ashara took young griff away from Westeros and hooked up with Jon Connington to raise him (she danced with him, remember). They're not lying when they say he is Rhaegar's son. I also think it is possible that Jon believes young griff is Elia's Aegon, and only Lemore knows he is Lyanna's son...

[Pipsmom]

The thing about that bothers me about this warning is that Tyrion seems like he might actually want to help Dany. Granted, for his own reasons (to make his family suffer) but from what we can see, he's not going to her with any ill intent towards her or schemes of his own in play as opposed to Illyrio/the Griffs, Victarion, Quentyn. Granted, Quaithe's warning could refer to events far down the road, but Quaithe might be playing her own game and have her own reasons for not wanting Dany to trust them.

and there are other Lions besides Tyrion. Warnings in riddles can be difficult as Dany knows too well.

[Aganerral]

I posted here my theory about a N+A=J / R+L=A switch.

Having now read this chapter, I would revise my candidate for R+L.

I would now suggest that R+L=Aegon (young Griff). Lemore is a candidate for Ashara (Tyrion notessigns she has borne children - I don't think her appearance has been described yet other than that she is attractive).

So Ashara took young griff away from Westeros and hooked up with Jon Connington to raise him (she danced with him, remember). They're not lying when they say he is Rhaegar's son. I also think it is possible that Jon believes young griff is Elia's Aegon, and only Lemore knows he is Lyanna's son...

Hmm, I had not thought about that take. I guess the related bit would be N + A = J (baby swap YG and Jon while at Starfall). That certainly is plausible, though I think that Tyrion, even as enamored as he is with other parts of Lemore, would have noticed if she had violet eyes.

Still leaves open question of just who the hell Jon's parents are :) And doesn't explain why Ned's promise to Lyanna kept eating away at him...in your theory, the promise would have been to take Young Griff from ToJ to Starfall and help set all that in motion. It would be a major secret that he's keeping, but I don't think it would lead to the callbacks to that promise in the situations that he kept remembering it.

[Sand Viper]

Hmm, I had not thought about that take. I guess the related bit would be N + A = J (baby swap YG and Jon while at Starfall). That certainly is plausible, though I think that Tyrion, even as enamored as he is with other parts of Lemore, would have noticed if she had violet eyes.

Still leaves open question of just who the hell Jon's parents are :) And doesn't explain why Ned's promise to Lyanna kept eating away at him...in your theory, the promise would have been to take Young Griff from ToJ to Starfall and help set all that in motion. It would be a major secret that he's keeping, but I don't think it would lead to the callbacks to that promise in the situations that he kept remembering it.

As I said in my other post it could be that Ned was promising to claim Lyanna's child as his own. Ned went to Starfall to pick up Lyanna's child but, unbeknownst to him, he ended up travelling back to Winterfell with his own son, Ashara having made a double switch.

The promise nags at him because Ned hates deceptive behaviour

[Jay Bee]

While all the Griff/Young Griff stuff was extremely interesting, what stood out for me most was the fact that FINALLY Tyrions acrobatic skills shown briefly at the beginning of GOT were explained.

It was a minor thing, but it had been annoying me that it had been explicitly stated, then forgotten about (and it never once again even alluded to the fact he had any physical grace to his movements).

And being a trained tumbler/gymnast may by inference explain to some extent his handyness on the battlefield (spatial awareness, knowing his body's capabilities and limits etc).

[Calibandar]

Young Griff has to be Aegon, I've always thought and posted that he was still alive. He is being groomed as a king, has purple eyes and his blue hair dye most likely covers the silvergold Targaryen hair. If not Aegon, he is another Targ, possibly a bastard.

It's interesting that he appears to be a Targ, but that there appears to be a threat to Dany's position amongst the Golden Company as well, the Mummer's Dragon.