[ADWD SPOILERS] Daenerys 3

[Xray the Enforcer]

continue

[Sun]

The girl grows more insufferable with every POV.

[ThinPaperWings]

Yeah, plenty of treading water.

I thought the naked sex dancers were totally over the top. I get that George is trying to evoke an alien civilization whose decadence knows no bounds, but I felt this was unrealistic and distracting.

[Emo Targaryen]

While one could argue that this chapter raises important philosophical questions about the meaning of freedom in a world of economic pressure, it doesn't do much plot-wise. Plus, I'm sure D&D are sitting there right now, scratching their heads, and wondering "how on earth shall we put this scene to film without people joking about Game of Porn?"

[Brandon Stark]

Sex shows of varying types were an actual feature of the ancient world. Right in the Colosseum, in fact, in addition to what I'm sure were much more common happenings in private. I didn't find the scene out of bounds at all.

That being said, if she could adopt a negotiating/conversational tactic that doesn't involve starting every blood sentence with "I am but a young...blah blah blah" it would make me really happy.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Hmm, I thought this chapter was important because Dany was actually given a very tempting offer with the ships, but ultimately had to turn it down because taking the offer would lead to the deaths of thousands. I mean, all she wanted while she was in Qarth was the very thing that Xaro was now offering her. But if she wants to get to Westeros with any kind of moral high ground she can't go now...

In any case Dany's first several chapters are by plot necessity going to be treading water to some extent because (I assume?) she'll have to stay in Meereen long enough for her various suitors to arrive.

As for the young girl blah blah thing yeah, I thought that was brilliant the first time we heard it in aSoS but it should be used more sparingly - c'mon GRRM. Also, I've always figured it should be read somewhat sarcastically which makes it more bearable.

[Rickon Steelskin]

I did love this phrase at the end of the chapter,

"When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown,they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world."

So dragons=flaming sword (aka lightbringer)

[bafleyanne]

As for the young girl blah blah thing yeah, I thought that was brilliant the first time we heard it in aSoS but it should be used more sparingly - c'mon GRRM. Also, I've always figured it should be read somewhat sarcastically which makes it more bearable.

Yes, I've always "heard" it in a sarcastic tone. Dany is much smarter than a lot of her advisors realize, but she knows that she has to defer to some of them or they will get pissed.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Yes, I've always "heard" it in a sarcastic tone. Dany is much smarter than a lot of her advisors realize, but she knows that she has to defer to some of them or they will get pissed.

I listen to the audiobook and unfortunately Roy Dotrice does a pretty terrible job of narrating Daenerys. The voice he uses for her sounds like some kind of demented gnome (I guess maybe it's hard to do the voice of a young woman when you are a 70 year old man :rolleyes: ). And relevant to this discussion he uses no sarcasm in this particular phrase. Oh well... He does such a great job on the rest (Tyrion in particular) that I can't be too mad. Audiobook readings always end up giving you a slightly skewed interpretation.

[Calibandar]

Good chapter. Yes it is all rather slow in these early chapters with her but the conversations with Xaro were excellent. Very well written. At first Xaro seems genuinely concerned for her and his advise is sound, she does have far many enemies than she knows and she should consider going. On the other hand, Qarth only wants her gone so that the slave trade can be renewed and she would indeed leave a massacre-in-waiting behind. Also, her army is not strong enough yet so the time doesn't seem to be right anyway.

Interesting that that at the end, Qarth declares war on her.

[Lord Qorgyle]

Interesting that that at the end, Qarth declares war on her.

It was more an unavoidable consequence. If slave trade is so important to Qarth, as to consider gifting her with 13 ships so she leaves the Slaver Bay, her refusal would sooner or later lead to war (sooner, in this case). Xaro even says that Qarth needs the slaves to be as rich as the city is, so the longer she remains Queen of Meereen, the poorer Qarth will become. To remain wealthy, Qarth needs Daenerys out of the picture, either by good will (the ships) or force.

Now I see why the Meereenese Knot was giving so many headaches to GRRM. It's really hard to fancy a realistic outcome to this situation without resorting to a Deus Ex Machina or contrived plots. With Qarth and Yunkai going to war with Daenerys, and Meereen itself a boiling kettle of conspiracies and hidden blades, Daenerys needs more than Barristan's stupid advices to get out of this.

[Calibandar]

Exactly, she needs far more help, and protection, than she currently has.

[JD44Irish]

She needs to get the hell out of Essos.

[Tammy]

It was more an unavoidable consequence. If slave trade is so important to Qarth, as to consider gifting her with 13 ships so she leaves the Slaver Bay, her refusal would sooner or later lead to war (sooner, in this case). Xaro even says that Qarth needs the slaves to be as rich as the city is, so the longer she remains Queen of Meereen, the poorer Qarth will become. To remain wealthy, Qarth needs Daenerys out of the picture, either by good will (the ships) or force.

Now I see why the Meereenese Knot was giving so many headaches to GRRM. It's really hard to fancy a realistic outcome to this situation without resorting to a Deus Ex Machina or contrived plots. With Qarth and Yunkai going to war with Daenerys, and Meereen itself a boiling kettle of conspiracies and hidden blades, Daenerys needs more than Barristan's stupid advices to get out of this.

Yes, she need Ser Jorah back.

[MJasper]

Meh. I wonder how Ser Jorah would react to all of these marriage proposals. Jealousy and bitterness, most likely. Dany needs Tyrion as her Hand.

Or maybe Jon Connington?

She doesn't have anyone at her side who knows how a city is run or how diplomatic relations are handled.

I find this Meereenese situation to be very telling. Earlier in the book, Barristan tells her that Ned Stark was a good man, and she responds that Lannister and Stark are the same, they're all the Usurper's Dogs. If she doesn't get rid of that attitude and learn how to make alliances she's going to get torn apart in Westeros. Dany's always going on about how many enemies she has, maybe there's a reason why. She's pretty good at conquering, but I think her time as a khaleesi may have left her unsuitable for rule.

[Tammy]

Meh. I wonder how Ser Jorah would react to all of these marriage proposals. Jealousy and bitterness, most likely. Dany needs Tyrion as her Hand.

Or maybe Jon Connington?

She doesn't have anyone at her side who knows how a city is run or how diplomatic relations are handled.

I find this Meereenese situation to be very telling. Earlier in the book, Barristan tells her that Ned Stark was a good man, and she responds that Lannister and Stark are the same, they're all the Usurper's Dogs. If she doesn't get rid of that attitude and learn how to make alliances she's going to get torn apart in Westeros. Dany's always going on about how many enemies she has, maybe there's a reason why. She's pretty good at conquering, but I think her time as a khaleesi may have left her unsuitable for rule.

You're right about Jerah; I thought of him because he was mentioned. But, I don't know that I want Tyrion as her hand right now. He's clever and one of my favorite characters but I think one of the things that Quaithe is warning her about is that all of them are going to her with their own motives and it might not be what is in her best interest at this moment. She's just not ready for Westeros.

I hated her reaction about Ned Stark and you just bringing it up made me think. She complains of the usurper and his dogs taking away from her by force what is rightfully hers. Does she realize how hypocritical she's being? She's going through various lands, conquering them by force and disrupting their very way of life and refusing to listen to reason. Now she has some very good reasons for doing some of what she's doing in trying to free slaves and give them a life not determined by harsh masters. The situation wasn't so different in Westeros. I know she doesn't know the full extent of her father's actions so she can't draw the parallel completely, but does she even realize that she is the usurper here in lands that don't want her?

[Fletcher Will]

She needs to/ get the hell out of Essos.

Yeah, she definitely erred in not taking Xaro's offer, even if its refusal had not led to war. Danny needs to either get the heck out of Mereen, or give up her pretensions to the iron throne. Mereen will coollapse into anarchy or dictatorship like Astapor the moment she leaves. So she should marrry Cleoon and set up an Empire along the slave coast, or just get out before things really fall apart. She has her unsullied and dragons, that's all she really needs in essos that she could hope to transport west. Throw in the sellswords and she could cerrtainly master at least one of the seven kingdoms. How canshe imagine that staying in Mereen will do anything other than weaken her available forces?

[ghost the direwolf]

You're right about Jerah; I thought of him because he was mentioned. But, I don't know that I want Tyrion as her hand right now. He's clever and one of my favorite characters but I think one of the things that Quaithe is warning her about is that all of them are going to her with their own motives and it might not be what is in her best interest at this moment. She's just not ready for Westeros.

I hated her reaction about Ned Stark and you just bringing it up made me think. She complains of the usurper and his dogs taking away from her by force what is rightfully hers. Does she realize how hypocritical she's being? She's going through various lands, conquering them by force and disrupting their very way of life and refusing to listen to reason. Now she has some very good reasons for doing some of what she's doing in trying to free slaves and give them a life not determined by harsh masters. The situation wasn't so different in Westeros. I know she doesn't know the full extent of her father's actions so she can't draw the parallel completely, but does she even realize that she is the usurper here in lands that don't want her?

I totally agree with you. with that attitude she is not likely to make allies in Westeros. I really wish Barristan will tell her the truth about her fater once and for all.

[Moester]

I agree Tammy. I like Ser Barristan but I wanted to slap him when he said this

“Her Grace freed you from your chains. It is for you to sharpen your swords and defend your own freedom when she leaves.”

That is very easy for you to say!

On one hand, her real throne is in Westeros, but she just can't up and leave Meereen without thinking properly of the consequences. Yunkai, Astapor, Tolos, Mantarys (if they have allied against her already) and Qarth will be breathing down her neck and will ravage Meereen once she leaves. Those who will stay who were loyal to her will undoubtedly be overwhelmed and killed.

[Jennelyn]

Daenarys should have thought about the consequences before she started this "free the slaves" revolution. She really is the Usurper to these people and my hope is that this experience will bring her more wisdom and help her to eventually become a better ruler. She certainly needs some help right about now. I have confidence that she will begin to make better decisions from this point forward.