[ADWD SPOILERS] Daenerys 4

[ipsuel]

I loved Dany's chapters in AGOT, by far the best. Ever since then, it has been the same story. Getting bored with it, especially with the Daario stuff. <snip>

Me, too! But now in hindsight, I am thinking what I really loved was Khal Drogo ;-)

So many ppl who aren't really dead, too bad he isn't one of them!

[CryFenril]

What we're seeing here in the Dany chapters, I think, is the slow death of her idealism.

She comes to the cities full of dreams of freeing slaves, making everyone fat and happy and rich, and ruling peacefully. Obviously that isn't going to happen.

She is young, full of hope, and lonely. She's stepped into a mess far bigger than she can handle, and over time she is seeing that this isn't going to work out the way she wanted.

The first crack in her personal idealism is her crush on Daario - while he's gone she can't think of anything but how handsome he is, but as soon as he reappears and opens his mouth, she remembers that he is also cruel, wicked, and thoughtless. Hence she shuns him. He doesn't fit her ideals of him, so she won't suffer him to be nearby any longer to tempt her.

The situation in Meereen will crack her more outward idealism - she will come to realize that a bloodless victory over slavery simply isn't going to happen. She's been so busy worrying about the "traitors" and "fights" in the prophecy, she hasn't paid much attention to anything else going on around her 'til recently.

She won't budge from her seat, however, until some impetus comes along that makes her move - and I think we have seen glimpses of several candidates coming right up her road. Forces are converging on her that will bring her to a crisis one way or another - and until then, I doubt she'll do anything of any importance.

It makes for slow reading, yes - but we are being shown that she's come to a halt after several grand (and, as has been noted, improbable) conquests, mainly because for the first time she's run into a problem that she can't solve easily or quickly. The Targaryen in her is stubborn, and wants to see things the way she thinks they should be, and won't budge until that happens. Whether that's how "her people" want it or not.

Sitting idle in Meereen may well be her first big mistake - but in order for us to know that, we have to see it.

[mnemosyne]

She comes to the cities full of dreams of freeing slaves, making everyone fat and happy and rich, and ruling peacefully. Obviously that isn't going to happen.

She is young, full of hope, and lonely. She's stepped into a mess far bigger than she can handle, and over time she is seeing that this isn't going to work out the way she wanted.

The first crack in her personal idealism is her crush on Daario - while he's gone she can't think of anything but how handsome he is, but as soon as he reappears and opens his mouth, she remembers that he is also cruel, wicked, and thoughtless. Hence she shuns him. He doesn't fit her ideals of him, so she won't suffer him to be nearby any longer to tempt her.

I agree. I'm not liking Dany in these chapters, but I am enjoying the chapters, and I think you've captured the significance of the ongoing Daario crush (she showed symptoms of it in the earlier book, too, before she sent Jorah away; she was always comparing him to hot-hot-hot Daario while thinking him wrong to look at her like that.) I'm also struck by the depth of history underlying the story in Mereen. Here comes Dany, with her dragons, thinking to smash the slave trade and be mother to bazillions. Now she has to try to reestablish trade to feed her people, but discovers that large-scale agriculture - commodity or otherwise - (aside from the burned olive trees) - is impossible because the countryside was destroyed by Valyrian dragonfire.

She has created an impossible knot for herself in Mereen, and on top of that is neglecting her dragons. Which are not toys; not charming little monkeys, but enormous monsters the Valyrians used to dominate the world. I'm also really enjoying the way we see Dany's fractured and problematic present juxtaposed against the wild rumors flying around the world about her.

[Lord Crispy of Bacon]

we got another piece of the summerhall, jenny of oldstones, wood witch, ghost on high hill, prophecy thread...

dwarves, albinos, and children, oh my!

[aryastark]

Every chapter of her that i read she feels kinda more and more useless to the story, or at least for me, she should just give the dragons to someone who would actually tame and train them and not let them rot chained in a pit, Westeros will be in need of her dragons, not of her, now that we have another Targ with a better claim then hers, more then ever. Just let her run of into the sunset with her precious Daario or something, ah she can drop dead right now, for all i care. Reading these chapters about her incompetence as a ruler is somewhat satisfyng though.

[luizfar]

I agree that we have to see this process of her idealism dying, as CryFenril said. As well as her trouble with her dragons.

If the dragons indeed need someone warging into them, this may be really necessary to explain why.

But it's indeed a drag to read her chapters. It's very hard to connect with the Meereenese people and their problems, since there are big expectations to find out what happens with the other characters that are central to the story like Jon, Tyrion, and even new ones like Griff.

And to tell the truth, I have this feeling towards Dany's chapters since she was in Qarth. The only exception being when Barristan comes into scene and they start talking about Rhaegar.

Thus I wouldn't mind if her chapters were shorter or fewer... But let's see what the next ones will bring. Maybe this drag will make sense. In GRRM we trust. Or do we?

[Iotun]

I don't think its a process of her idealism dying. Martin had said that he's showing in his work how good people can be bad kings, and bad people good kings. This is reflected in both Dany's and Jon's storylines who are both getting into more and more trouble - but really the trouble is because they are in such situations that it is almost impossible to get out in any positive outcome.

I can't 'dislike' Dany. Would I have rules otherwise in her place, would I have been cruel, or just left the cities to rot? If keeping power means having to justify your morality, then maybe morality is not so valuable after all. If Dany was willing to abandon Meereen and the freedmen to their fate, then why should I want her to have any power in the first place? Because of her birthright? I have no loyalty to bloodlines. At least Dany shows that she believes she has a role as a queen to do justice, and not just to rule because she is entitled to do so - which is the feeling I'm getting from Aegon.

Dany however is showing her age. She is essentially still a teenager, and she thinks like a teenager. In every book Dany has been learning and advancing. I don't think it is Martin's purpose to show her downfall now. Dany is almost like the fantasy cliche of 'the powerful empress who comes from across the sea' - only Martin is showing us her entire life story. Dany needs to learn at this stage as well. Interestingly enough, I think the person she truly needs at this point is Tyrion. I can't help but feel that Tyrion would know exactly what to do in this situation.

Martin however shows interesting sides on the theme of power. We are in a world ruled by conservatism, and by tradition. Dany is a queen because of her noble birth - but is that rightful? Are we to accept the traditions of that society and do 'what is necessary' - burn the cities, flee, go to Westeros, get her crown? Is getting the crown some higher ideal, some right, that justifies that? Isn't the fact that she is NOT willing to kill the children hostages because they are innocent, what in fact gives her the 'right' to be queen? For if she is not just, then her power has no justification behind it, just the right of the strong over the weak... Or perhaps it is that justice is a false ideal, something that can never be truly achieved, and in a cruel world, cruel measures need to be taken to maintain stability, order, and ensure that the small fold in fact benefit... yet isn't that the argument of many actual dictators in our world today, and many monarchs and dictators in our own past - have we not already decided that that argument cannot stand?

[malarky1231]

Might is Right. She has the dragons, she has the power to take Westeros and the slaver cities. Legitimacy and a claim to the throne is not enough, you need the power to back it up. Aegon the Conqueror didn't take Westeros by being just and clinging to morals. He took it by fire and blood.

[devilish hedgehog]

She needs to let the Dragons out and burn the shit out of all three slaver cities.

Also where is Drogon? You would think somebody would notice a big black dragon flying around...

OH! haven't read the rest of the replies yet but you totally reminded me of something i meant to comment upon in a Tyrion chapter previous to this. In the fog chapter, Tyrion notices something flying in the air, out of the corner of his eye, i'll have to go back and re-read to get the exact quote but i figured it COULD be the black dragon.

Also, i'm excited no more Daario, i don't think anyone likes him.

I thought it was smart of her to string on the Meereen dude, a la Queen Elizabeth

[Breakspear]

If keeping power means having to justify your morality, then maybe morality is not so valuable after all. If Dany was willing to abandon Meereen and the freedmen to their fate, then why should I want her to have any power in the first place? Because of her birthright?

This exactly. If Dany only cares about power and the means to acquire it then she is a rather boring character. There are so many similar characters in the story already that there would be no reason to want her on the throne or care about how she got there. What distinguishes her is her desire to be a good ruler, and staying in Meereen is showing her how hard that is. I enjoy seeing her facing difficult decisions and struggling to do what is right. Nobody has ever found it easy to rule in ASoIaf, and nobody has ever found it easy to stay true to their morality. She is trying to do both.

If she abandons the slaves she freed, they will be slaughtered or recaptured and the slave trade resumes as it always was. It might help her get to Westeros easier, but a great moral victory will have been lost. Are we really trying to say the enslavement of an entire people is not a bad enough thing to justify her waiting?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Wow to this thread, just wow.

In a Storm of Swords, all of you hated Dany because things were too "easy" for her and she conqured too quickly. Now you all hate her because ruling would be too slow and difficult.

I don't think I'll ever understand you people. Shame on you for saying she should be more like Tywin. Shame.

Did you guys miss the part where she SENT DAARIO AWAY permanently because she realized she can't be trusted around him? And set up a very smart alliance with this Meereen guy that either will lead to peace or she loses nothing?

She is becoming an awesome ruler, and I had my doubts 2 chapters back.

The sad thing is her poor dragons... :( She needs to go to them and become their mother again.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

edit sorry, doubled

[The Oncoming Storm]

Barristan is right, they should be out of that damned city. It's boring and what Dany needs is not some Ghiscari but Hercule Poirot.

Also, I hate Daario and think he'll be one of the betrayals. What can one expect from a man who paint his hair and beard to stupid colours and can't stop courting Dany? I'd go to bed sooner with Jorah.

And she should let poor dragons out and hug them.

[DivisionByZero]

I'm fine with the Dany chapters so far, as far as her rulership over the city and the attendant troubles plot-line goes, anyway. The thing that's hard to read in them is the way her poor dragons are getting treated. She needs to strengthen her bond with them, not chain them away. The way she's going now, she's losing them and they're going to end up turning into just one other menace that needs to be defeated. Seems like a lot of buildup for having dragons on the side of the "good guys" to have it end that way, but then again, I would actually not be surprised if GRRM twisted things like that. I'd be sad, but not surprised.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I'm fine with the Dany chapters so far, as far as her rulership over the city and the attendant troubles plot-line goes, anyway. The thing that's hard to read in them is the way her poor dragons are getting treated. She needs to strengthen her bond with them, not chain them away. The way she's going now, she's losing them and they're going to end up turning into just one other menace that needs to be defeated. Seems like a lot of buildup for having dragons on the side of the "good guys" to have it end that way, but then again, I would actually not be surprised if GRRM twisted things like that. I'd be sad, but not surprised.

I think GRRM needed to keep the Dany storyline tense until he could get the other players to her. And it had to be something more important than Meereenese politicks or honestly her chapters would be a complete snore. The reader is well aware how important the dragons are... and to see them missing and imprisoned is really upsetting! GRRM WHY DO YOU PLAY WITH MY EMOTIONS!!! :crying:

That said, I glanced at the table of contents and TOC spoiler:

saw a chapter called "The Dragontamer," so I have hope things will be resolved. Hmm, though, it better not be Euron "taming" with the horn...

She is such a child, ruled by her emotions and morality.

:stunned: Oh yeah such a child, making morally correct choices all the time. :stunned:

I certainly hope that you tend to make choices based on morality??

I don't feel that she has truly grown up. She makes the argument of why women, particularly mothers, shouldn't rule.

Wut.

Wut.

Idonteven.

:ack:

[Brewmaster]

I agree and disagree with some of the sentiment here. The Dany chapters are among my least favorite so far, a third into this book. However, I'm really enjoying the book overall. There's been quite a few outstanding chapters, IMO.

But like others have stated, I'm having trouble caring about Mareen. Dany's story has always suffered somewhat, from being so removed from everyone else that she was never even interacting with any of the same people. That's why Selmy entering into the picture was so welcome and exciting, back in Clash. It seems likely, or possible at least, that her story may get Mormont back, along with Tyrion which should help things out there, and speed up her story arc as we will have another POV character around to see what's happening in her world.

But yeah, all of these Mareen nobility characters blend together and come across as 1 dimensional throw away characters. Really, there seems little way around it, as why do we (as readers) want to invest any thing in or care about these lands that we know aren't a permanent destination anyway?

Again, I'm loving the book so far, and I'm probably not even as down on the Dany storyline as most. That's mainly because I get the sense that her story is finally going to break out soon. Dragons, Tyrion, Jorah, Aegon...should get interesting.

[Lord Qorgyle]

I don't think that the Daenerys' chapters are that boring or uninteresting. I think that GRRM is, as any good cyvasse player, displaying his pieces on the board before throwing them into a fight.

We need to see Daenerys being distressed by the power, by her rulership. We need to see her lost and confused, making mistakes. Of course she could pull a Tyrion smartass and make everything perfect but that, THAT would be BORING. If the hero had it always easy to win, we wouldn't be thrilled. We need to see her smothered by problems and troubles so we care and enjoy when she triumphs over them.

Oh, and to those who say that she should abandon all her idealism, leave the Meereenese to die and go to Westeros to take her Throne: shame on you. It's the high sense of morality in Daenerys that puts her above Robert, Joffrey, Cersei, Viserys or even Aegon. It's not her fuzzy hair and eye colors, but the fact that she wants to do the right thing for the people around her, that she, as a Queen, places her subjects' welfare before hers. She realizes that the selfish, cunning thing to do would be flee the Slavers' Bay and go conquer Westeros when it's at its low. But she understood that such a decision would cost many people their lives and chose to fight for them, not for her birthrights.

Would you support/want a King/Queen that only does the things that benefit him/her even if it destroys his/her subjects' lives? Or would you rather have someone that reigns FOR his people instead of for himself?

[malarky1231]

I think the behavior of rulers have as much to do with their temperament as their personal experiences. Tywin partly acted the way he did cause his father was a joke who ruined the family and brought shame on his house. Had he acted in a way like say Eddard or Dany, Tywin's behavior would be different. Again Robb and Jon are both honorable, sincere, and principled, mainly bc their father was a good role model. The actions and behavior of the forefathers are reflected on their children. I think you can also see this among the Freys and the Boltons.

Of course there are other considerations, but having a good role model/parent go a long way towards who you become in later life.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I'm getting pretty bored by her chapters. While other characters are doing things,it seems like she's just being indecisive. I liked Dany chapters in all the other books(except for maybe Clash cause she didn't do much) but these are pretty tough to read through.

[JD44Irish]

I think these chapters are long, tedious and painful on purpose. He wants us to dislike these chapters because IMO, GRRM wants to show that Dany is not universally loved. In the lead up to this book, Dany was a big fan favorite, top three w/ Tyrion and Jon. What better way to show how reviled she is in the slaver cities than to actually make us feel it.

I think he does this with lots of characters and is quite skilled at evoking certain emotions in the reader. For instance, Darkstar... everyone hates Darkstar b/c he reads like an amateur wrote him. But I think that's the point... reads don't just hate evil (some love it) so the character has to be poorly written and noticeably so in order to get the readers to hate him.

Just a theory, it doesn't really help me enjoy the chapters more, but its something to chew on.