[ADWD SPOILERS] Daenerys 4

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I think these chapters are long, tedious and painful on purpose. He wants us to dislike these chapters because IMO, GRRM wants to show that Dany is not universally loved. In the lead up to this book, Dany was a big fan favorite, top three w/ Tyrion and Jon. What better way to show how reviled she is in the slaver cities than to actually make us feel it.

..

Just a theory, it doesn't really help me enjoy the chapters more, but its something to chew on.

It's an interesting theory, but in that case I'd rather he be even-handed and do it for Jon and Tyrion as well. If he ends up doing that, then sure! I'll be glad.

Dany didn't need any additional shit compared to them, to be honest. She's already hated by about 50% of the Westeros forum-goers at least.

I do agree that he wants us to feel agony for Dany's awful situation. Unfortunately that seems to have turned in the minds of readers to anger at Dany for not somehow magically fixing everything like she usually does.

[GoldSeven]

I see that my problems with this book is echoed by many. It's not that I want the Michael Bay equivalent of Fantasy literature. I don't care that there's not much happening in Dany's chapters (or others). What makes me want to throw away the entire series is that ASoIaF has become three different Fantasy novels (which is a huge feat, definitely - given that most Fantasy authors build a series around half an idea, it's remarkable that GRRM pours ideas that could have sustained three different series into one), but my problem is that two of those Fantasy novels don't interest me at all.

Dany starts out as an exile queen. She acquires an army. She acquires dragons. She acquires ruthlessness and skill to rule.

And five books later, when she COULD acquire ships, she declines and acquires another war to fight in an area that is of utterly no consequence for the story I want to read.

Same with Tyrion. All those adventures, all those tales, all this history, all this WORLD he encounters - great Fantasy, wonderfully thought out and conceived, kudos! But it's not getting me anywhere. I want to read about Westeros, about those things that whetted my appetite in the first book. All that is mostly gone, with the exception of the Jon and Bran chapters.

I agree with everyone who said that dropping the five year gap was a bad idea. I have to say that, for me, it's killed the series. And that makes me sad. ASoIaF gave me a lot, and I poured a lot into it - time to read it, time to suffer with the characters, time to draw it. It makes me sad and disappointed.

[Windchaser]

I belong to the few (?) who still like the Dany chapters I guess. This chapter illustrates that emotionally she's regressed a bit to the teenager she is supposed to be.

I mean, has she actually had a crush before? Drogo she learned to love, but this is the first time she's been pining for anyone.

I cut her some slack for that. Sure, she picked the wrong guy (in her crushy state she blinded herself to what a cruel man he really is), which is what I feel is the message in this chapter. (Jorah was more decent and gave her better council, after he he fell in love with her and turned fully to her side. :P)

Gods, I do wonder if he might not be one of her betrayers...(Can't trust a sellsword after all.)

Daenerys is stuck in a bad place cause she's too...good. She knows the horror of being sold, of being just some property to do with as you please, so it's natural for her to go on a "end all slavery everywhere" crusade. She's still fairly young and allowed to be a little naive about the big old world out there and how it works. I just hope it wont end badly for her. (She should have tried actually training her dragons when they were younger...)

[Silverin]

I gotta say I am amused to see so many dont like the dany chapters. I myself dont like her character, she is among my least favourites yet I think so far her chapters are really good and, give me hope that her storyline is finally turning more reallistic, ballanced or whatever you call it.

I feel like finally the people at least in Merreen started to grow some personality they are not as 1 dimensional as before. Or at least I hope that at the end of the book it wont be: "And dany was so wise not to trust, not to like, not to listen to anyone cause all of them were against her." If it would turn out to be like that i would just shoot myself.

I really liked Hizdahr zo Loraq, and the gay prince from the Quart. Say what you want I can totally see it why would they turn against her if they would choose it (because she is a horrible ruler), and I dont se them evil at all, and for that I am happy.

About the Daario thing, it is really interesting how horrified Dany feels when he suggest her to ruthlessly crush her enemies for her, when before when Drogo decided to go against Westeros for her she was rejoycing. In the ruthless waarior way Daario is no different than Drogo at all. Maybe it shows that Dany starts to see the man around her with her brain as well, and not just with her hormons (though she still has a long way to go).

About the dragons, I am actually happy that they are chained up. So far if you were reading the Tyrion chapters as he goes along the River Rhoyne there is a lot of once flourishing city's ruins, and we know that the dragons were the ones who destroyed those civilizations. The dragons are no pets, they are monsters, if she would let them roam freely she would have even less support because so far, when they aren't overlooked they kill both friends and foos. They are deadly like nuclear power, but way more harder to control. So I dont feel said for the dragons that they are chained up at all.

[ABeauty]

Just got to add my thruppence worth here. To me these chapters are both brilliant and awful - I'll explain. First off, I love the realistic nature of them which I'll go more into; however, I can't help but feel that GRRM painted himself into a corner dropping the five year gap and so we see a lot of necessary growth but also a lot of Dany having to hang around while the other plot lines get themselves into shape (I also can't help but feel that more time should have passed due to all the travelling around - hell, people could spend 2 weeks at sea trying to get from Dover to Calais in the old days, that's about 20 miles over sea) which is tedious.

Secondly we have Dany trying to be an excellent Queen and I can really identify with her thought processes, but the world is just grinding her down to its level which is sad. How exactly is Dany supposed to know that ending the slave trade would end in disaster? Does she have a handy guide to the US Civil War? I don't think so either. She acts for good intentions and is trying to cling on to that against the weight of tradition, history, economics etc. She isn't Stannis, to stick to her course regardless, she is having to learn and grow as a ruler and we do see her coming to realise that change has to happen slowly rather than be dumped on from above. She's becoming more pragmatic as a ruler while still having some ideals.

Thirdly, what is all this about the dragons going to people who would appreciate them? We tend to get all caught up in the cool factor in fantasy, guy with fastest sword, control of dragons etc., that we forget what this would really be like for people like us. It's kind of like cheering for the Somali warlords for being cool and all might is right, and not thinking about the starving consequences. What GRRM is doing is forcing us to examine these issues. The baby dragons were really cute and I cheered for Dany when they hatched, but in *reality* how do you control these things? Dany doesn't know yet, and she isn't prepared to risk them harming people so she has to chain them up. I do feel sorry for them, and for the death of my 'just kill them all' fantasies, but I think that it is a necessary thing to do and I'm glad George is going down this line.

Fourthly Daario! Dany is handling this in a reasonably mature way but I can't see it ending well. Just get a bed slave or anyone other than a mercenary please Dany!

Finally, I find them awful because obviously she can't stay in Meereen for the rest of the series or duh! But I just can't see it ending well here; the best I'm hoping for is that the dragons grow to Temeraire size and she flies away with her dudes as her flight crew or hanging from the cargo netting on the dragons' bellies leaving the awful Meereenese to do whatever.

[wolverine]

I think some of the comments are ridiculous in this thread. For example, do the people who want her to just loot Merene and sprint to Westeros realize how out of character that would be? Has Dany had any formal training in being a ruler? She just had her dumb ass brother telling her about the might and ferocity of the dragons. Dany has developed a deep appreciation for all humanity as was shown very early in her development when she began contradicting Dothraki customs. After seeing what happened to the previous two cities she sacked she feels deeply that she can not let another city be worse off than before she got there.

I don't think she had any idea that there could ever be a slave who would not thank her for their freedom. It is a big blow and would cause many people to feel like they need to make things right. Some people seem to take that the lessons from ASOIF is that the only way you can rule in a medeival society is unscrupulously, ruthlessly, and with total disregard to insignificant human life. I hope some other model may show that involves some morality, other than appearing moral so everyone doesn't hate you. It seems that Starks were pretty successful for a very long time sticking to a strict moral code though.

[FuliginEyes]

Not a fan of Dany's chapters so far either. Sure, they illustrate how hard it to rule, but the point has already been driven into us many times. Let's move on please.

Also, I'm extremely sick of her "I am only a young girl..." line as well. I wasn't a big fan of Dany previously, but I didn't dislike her either. Now her reign of boredom and pining for Daario is really getting on my nerves.

I agree, I hate that line too - does she really think that fools people into under-estimating her?

I always liked Dany before, but now she is just so hard to take. I find most all the surrounding characters in Meereen and Slaver's Bay worlds more interesting than her at the moment.

[Kissiq]

The dragons become more fierce and Dany becomes more lusty and lazy.

The blood of the dragon? Really? Her dragon is either asleep or dead.

And with Drogon fled, I have to think Dany is just a foolish girl at the end of the day. Lusty and soft of heart. So she will lose the cities, lose the fear the people have for her and her dragons too huh? All while contemplating Daario fucking her.

Utter bullshit and its a pain to read, as if her incessant chatter with this idiot or the next teach her shit.

Oh so disappointed. I only hope she get bitten hard in the ass... that will wake this lazy dragon.

[George Snow]

Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the Dany storyline, its second to her GOT arc in my opinion - but I didn't like this particular chapter.

Sorry, but I think that you have entirely misread the Dany chapters so far - GRRM is showing us that she is an unfit ruler clouded by her emotions rather than giving fair judgement. This chapter gives us two examples of this: the lack of consequence with her hostages for the murders committed by the Sons of the Harpy, because she thinks the children are cute, and sending the Storm Crows away because Daario disagreed with her.

She needs to take a lesson from Jon, and "kill the girl".

It does seem funny that some people "hated" Dany, because things came too easy for her. Now that things are hard, some people "hate" her for that.

GH

[Khal Rith]

Anyone fill me in on what we should know about Summerhall and Jenny up to this point with any spoilers for after this chapter. Sounds familiar but can't remember what book/chapter I have heard of Summerhall in.

“She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A Dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest.”

“ What became of her?”

“Summerhall.” The word was fraught with doom.

[PetrusOctavianus]

In ASOAIF the chapter mentioning Jenny and Summerhall is chapter 22 in SoS where Arya is with the Brotherhood at Hight Heart and meets the Ghost of High Heart.

[Khal Rith]

Thank you, helped a little bit but still don't really understand what happened there.. I guess we don't know yet? Have we heard the lyrics of Jenny's Song yet?

[WildlingGirl]

Personally, I enjoy reading about Dany's woes, missteps and personality development infinitely more than coming upon a chapter starting "5 years later, Dany had suffered and learnt how to rule her people, now let's see who she marries".

Sending Daario away and banning him from her sight was immensely wise, as she understands she can't be trusted around him. So effectively she kills her lust and clears her head in one go.

If only Barristan started actually counselling her instead of disapproving...

Finally, the dragons must be kept chained because she has no idea how to train them. If they're unleashed, she'll be no mother of dragons, as she will not be responsible for them anymore. It's sad, but until a proper tamer or warg-proficient person appears, they should stay where they are, and hopefully Drogon will decide to drop in as well.

My €0.02...

[katno]

Gaahh Dany is really annoying me in this book. I don't like how GRRM is dealing with this teenage girl; all the characterisation of Daario so far has been of a slimy, flattering, self-important greaseball and Dany has even admitted to the reader that she knows he cannot be trusted. And yet she is behaving completely in love, which is ridiculous.

I would like to see her get less frustrating; either shag Daario and have done with it (she is a queen, she can have concubines right? tbh she just really needs to get laid) or stand up, make some decisions and get to Westeros. She should be so busy there isn't time to drool at how Daario rubs his jewellery...just imho.

[Tammy]

Dany is growing a bit thin on me, but I think one of the things Martin is doing here is showing that one person cannot rule alone...that it takes good counsel. We've seen that from the start when Robert goes to Ned asking him to be his hand and complains about all the flatterers at court.

Dany has no good counselors that she can trust. Barriston is great, but he's never going to offer her solutions to this problem as he's always going to be pushing for her to leave for Westeros. The same is most likely true for all of the people on their way to her right now. No one is going to understand what she is trying to attempt and learn right here and give her the counsel she needs for solving this problem.

[Morky_Pep]

IMPATIENT READERSSSS !!!!!!

I am extremely exasporated after reading through this thread. Ive never seen so much hatred for a character with such moral integrity. I think why people dislike her and these chapters is because you all are impatient!

I believe its safe to say that MOST readers liked Dany after the completion of AGOT, I mean who didnt ? The introduction to dragons, the death of Drogo, and culture of the Dothraki were all fascinating. But I think what truely made the significance of the dragons was that it gave promise for Dany to eventually return to Westeros, and readers expected it to happen the next book. News flash people: raising an army, gaining character attributea in order to learn the art of ruling, making alliances, and commencing the conquest of an entire CONTINENT does not happen quickly. I predicted from the get-go that Danys return would be a major part in the end game of the series (just like i believe that the end game for Arya is to become a righteous and.noble assasin). In AGOT we get the promise of the end game. In ACOK we get the promise of the difficulties of reaching the end game( the prophecies of the undying, the introduction to Qarth and Xaxos and the importance of slavery in the free cities). In ASOS we see the beginning of Danys ruled and are shown many lucky victories. Now we are going to start seing the difficulties and some of these prolhecies come true in this novel. A long journey Dany has but i find it all interesting , and dont worry impatient readers, im sure the return of the Targaryans will happen !

Now some responses to some things I read in this thread:

Someone said that they hate reading about Dany because shes far away from what they care about , which is westeros. Uh , do yoh not realize that there are four parties on their way to her from westeros. Clearly making the outcome of the war centered around her ! Quentyn, Euron, Aegon, and Tyrion(maybe) ! Oh and more and more people are discussing her in westeros.

The most annoying thing i have ever read, and if you people were near me id slap you all across the face , is the idea that Martin skipping 5 years is a good idea. I know that if he did do it that all you people would be changing your minds saying that the characters dknt feel real, because they are different. I dont know if youve noticed but these past 2 books have been essentially about character developmentIn !! If he skipped 5 years he would have to explain it all in flash backs, but this way we see it through the events.

[Jory's Shade]

we got another piece of the summerhall, jenny of oldstones, wood witch, ghost on high hill, prophecy thread...

dwarves, albinos, and children, oh my!

That's the meat of this chapter. Who is the prince that was promised? Dany? Aegon? Jon? Still no clear answer, but the wood witch = child of the forest confirmed and Summerhall brought back up. Awesomeness, but still a riddle yet unsolved.

[Solarfall]

Barristan is right, they should be out of that damned city. It's boring and what Dany needs is not some Ghiscari but Hercule Poirot.

Also, I hate Daario and think he'll be one of the betrayals. What can one expect from a man who paint his hair and beard to stupid colours and can't stop courting Dany? I'd go to bed sooner with Jorah.

Right, I think that's why we got so much sansa-like "oh my god Daario your purple beard is soo lovely" chapters, because the guy will (try and fail to) betray her.

Not much action in these Dany chapters, just a growing ineffectuallness ( ?) feeling.

I'm afraid we have to wait Tyrion, ironmen or the dornish prince to get some good action in the east.

[hesitantreader]

At this point this series is dragging. I don't want action, but it would be nice to see less retread. We already went through the whole king has trouble ruling story line and don't need another one. What we need is more PoV characters in the same place. The series is at its best when they are playing off of them.

[Forelver]

I am one who enjoys the Dany chapters and I like the character-not one of my very favorites but I like her. I have to say this whole thread was great to read through, so many points on both sides I agree with it's hard to try and quote all of them!

I think Dany is trying to be a good, compassionate ruler but makes mistakes-I'm often not sure if she's making the right choice or not. And I think it's hard for her because she has so many advisors telling her different things and not too many she can totally trust.

Don't like Daario much and think her getting together with him would be a mistake-but also I can see it's very normal to have a crush at this age.

I DON'T like what Dany's doing to her dragons. And she's still getting people bringing in bones when 2 dragons are chained up and one is missing-shouldn't that make her a little suspicious? And what if the "betrayal for gold" was the man who said her dragons killed his little girl?

Another thing that I found interesting-Barriston says Dany's parents married because of a prediction from a woods witch. It seems like there's a great store set by all these predictions from witches and maegis(? sp) and it will be interesting to see if they're all as accurate as these characters think they are!