[ADWD SPOILERS] Melisandre 1

[Valar_Morghulis]

I've always thought Mel's very appearance had to be an illusion...

I was wondering this as well. We know from her POV that Melisandre was sold as a slave in her youth, but she doesn't seem to have the facial tattoos that are apparently common to other slave/priests that we see in this book. Is this because she is able to cast some sort of glamour on herself?

[Impish]

Next I'm expecting a Ned POV. "Hi, everybody! It's me, Ned. You thought I was dead? Nah. Varys fit me with a phoney head on a spring to fool everybody. Payne was in on it too. Did we laugh! I've just been hanging out here with my friends, Gandalf and Spock and Harry."

:rofl:

You forgot Elvis though. ;)

[All-for-Joffrey]

I was wondering this as well. We know from her POV that Melisandre was sold as a slave in her youth, but she doesn't seem to have the facial tattoos that are apparently common to other slave/priests that we see in this book. Is this because she is able to cast some sort of glamour on herself?

Afaik, this is only a Volantis thing, it's the only city we've seen that in. The slaves in the Slave Cities don't have that, nor do slaves we've seen in other cities.

[NW Deserter]

I was wondering this as well. We know from her POV that Melisandre was sold as a slave in her youth, but she doesn't seem to have the facial tattoos that are apparently common to other slave/priests that we see in this book. Is this because she is able to cast some sort of glamour on herself?

You know, that would explain the glowing ruby on her neck (similar to the one Mance is wearing)...

[The Oncoming Storm]

MANCE! I knew something was off with that cowardly death, it was so not him! And then "Rattleshirt" pwning Jon, but not behaving treacherously enough, etc etc...

I lovelovelove Mance for some reason. So freakin' happy he's alive! :wub: Melisandre is not so bad after all. She even cared to keep Davos' son out of battle. She ain't gona be a good girl but she's more balanced now and not just "that annoying pyromaniac".

Mance!

[Breakspear]

Firstly, great chapter. Like others, I was a doubter, but Mel works as a POV. She is flawed and wrong and just like any other character.

A few points that occurred to me:

- After reading Dany's recent chapters, it seems to me that she could really, really use someone who can see things in the flames, however vague they may be. She's fumbling in the dark looking for the Sons of the Harpy and wondering who to trust, but Mel could just tell her. If only she didn't back the wrong horse stag.

- The fingerbones stood out for me too. I think given the dependance on powders and tricks that Mel confesses, she must be pretty good at sleight of hand. Maybe she could have taken it when Davos was asleep in his cell?

- No hint towards the "You know nothing, Jon Snow". Was this just a coincidence?

- I, like others have said, think that Mel's appearance is an illusion. The whole chapter practically points towards it: Mance, the rubies, her ideas about the appearance of power. The only question is why? It's a lot of trouble to go to just to hide that you're old or ugly or tattooed. Having said that, I would love to read Stannis' reaction if his lover Melisandre is revealed to be an ancient crone who looks like Maester Aemon with teats.

[NW Deserter]

- The fingerbones stood out for me too. I think given the dependance on powders and tricks that Mel confesses, she must be pretty good at sleight of hand. Maybe she could have taken it when Davos was asleep in his cell?

I think he had already lost them when he washed up on that rock in Blackwater Bay.

[RICKON4KING!!]

So do you think we'll find out who the grey rider is this book? I'd hate to have to wait for Winds.

[limbstan]

This was a good chapter, but what did it do that a Jon Snow chapter couldn't have done?

[malarky1231]

It gave you insight into mel's methods, something you wouldn't be able to do in a Jon pov.

[Prince of the North]

- I, like others have said, think that Mel's appearance is an illusion. The whole chapter practically points towards it: Mance, the rubies, her ideas about the appearance of power. The only question is why? It's a lot of trouble to go to just to hide that you're old or ugly or tattooed. Having said that, I would love to read Stannis' reaction if his lover Melisandre is revealed to be an ancient crone who looks like Maester Aemon with teats.

Well, I think it's probably the obvious answer: if one is going to be successful at seduction one must look seductive ;) Also, I theorize that Mel has received the Kiss of Fire (i.e. been resurrected like Donderrion and Stoneheart) so maybe she needs to hide her true appearance because of that? :dunno: You're right, though, I would also love to see Stannis's reaction if Mel turns out to not be this extremely beautiful woman but something else :D

[Lord Qorgyle]

I'm surprised that when people read a new POV, it suddenly changes their opinion on the character and creates sympathy towards a character that wasn't sympathetic at all. It happened with Jaime in ASoS (granted, it took some time, but still), and now in ADwD with Reek (!!!) and now Melissandre (wtf?!) Apparently having a POV chapter makes readers forget everything they read about that character before.

I'm terrified at the notion of GRRM creating a POV chapter for Ramsay Bolton in the next book and then suddenly people will begin to say that flaying and torturing people isn't that bad because he does it with "good intentions". (If you can justify burning people alive because it's well-intentioned, you can justify ANYTHING)

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Honestly didn't see the point of using the Melisandre PoV here. I guess adding variety is nice and all, but what did we really learn? We already knew she was a true believer, she uses both tricks (the powders) and actual magic (the spell on Mance). And when it comes to the actual plot events, this all could just have been another Jon chapter. Eh, whatever. Maybe there is another Melisandre chapter somewhere that neccesitated this "introductory" one... Or maybe GRRM was just bored of writing Jon and wanted to try something new. :P

But, actually, wherever she got that information was referring to the stone dragon eggs!

Maybe someone actually came up with this theory before. I am not a heavy user of this site, so I'm sure I'm not the first to realize this, but Drogo was Khal (a king) and he was burned in the fire with the stone dragon(egg)s, which were then woken.

Yep, that's how I've always interpreted it. It's the strongest piece of evidence that Dany is actually Azor Ahai.

It's made Melisandre a particularly annoying character to read from her first appearance, since we know she's got the prophecy all wrong... but she doesn't have the information to know she's wrong.

[Brewmaster]

Very interesting chapter. This book has been full of them.

A few of my thoughts. Someone mentioned earlier that GRRM said a Mel POV would give too much away. Well, I can see how that could be the case. It certainly made it clear that she's not evil. At least, not in the same sense that Ramsay Snow is evil. She thinks she's doing good and not solely for selfish reasons.

With that said, there are a few things that Mel noticeably didn't think about. Lightbringer was one, which leads me to believe that it is indeed just a parlor trick of hers and she knows its not the real thing.

I wasn't shocked my the Mance reveal in this chapter, though I was suprised overall that Mel didn't want to kill Mance after all. But, remember in the Jon / Rattleshirt fight chapter, Rattleshirt says "she burned the wrong man".

The girl riding for Jon's protection is interesting. First of all, didn't Mel say in the last Jon chapter that the girl was riding to escape her wedding? In this chapter she seems not to be at all sure who the girl is or why she's coming, other than to see Jon. She just thinks to herself "who esle if not his sister".

I see three obvious choices

The most obvious choice is Jeyne Poole. Which also makes her the least likely, IMO.

Asha is next on the list. Knowing that visions are murky the girl in grey could easily mean Greyjoy and we know she wants to escape her wedding. With that said, she seems to need some recoup time to be anything after the beating she just took and she should be in Stannis' care right now. Her riding to the wall for protection seems strange. Though I suppose she could maybe be riding to take the black and escape her wedding vows that way?

Overall I think its just another misdirection. The almost forgotten choice is often the right one, with Martin, so I'll go with Jeyne Stark. She would be wearing Stark Grey. She would trust Jon. It could suggest that the Jeyne switch crackpot theorists were correct. Or it could play out just as we saw in AFFC, and she's just running away from her family that betrayed her.

Its not going to be real Arya. I think Sansa's not much more likely.

[Lord Qorgyle]

Honestly didn't see the point of using the Melisandre PoV here. I guess adding variety is nice and all, but what did we really learn? We already knew she was a true believer, she uses both tricks (the powders) and actual magic (the spell on Mance). And when it comes to the actual plot events, this all could just have been another Jon chapter. Eh, whatever. Maybe there is another Melisandre chapter somewhere that neccesitated this "introductory" one... Or maybe GRRM was just bored of writing Jon and wanted to try something new. :P

The insight in Melisandre's visions and how she interprets them. As readers, we now know that she's juggling with the things she sees in the flames. She has power to see things to come, but makes a lot of assumptions (such as assuming that Stannis= AAR despite the flames always leading to Jon Snow). Her self-assurance comes to a certain degree from wild guessing (a tower such as EastWatch? Yes, it's definitely Eastwatch, put all your eggs in that basket).

Melisandre's visions can be trusted, but her interpretation of them can't. She's blind to everything she doesn't want to see, and too eager to offer prophecies that she made up of assumptions of her real visions. Just because she guesses it right some times isn't enough to follow her blindly, because sooner or later she'll botch horribly in her guesses.

[dcon]

Theory that I know is wrong but what if it were "reek" on the horse? If the implications are true, he may be more of a woman than a man anatomically speaking

[Bahimiron]

Slave lots? Strange take on lot 7. I didnt even know there was such a thing as "slave lots"

In an auction each item up for bid is referred to as a 'lot'.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

The insight in Melisandre's visions and how she interprets them. As readers, we now know that she's juggling with the things she sees in the flames. She has power to see things to come, but makes a lot of assumptions (such as assuming that Stannis= AAR despite the flames always leading to Jon Snow). Her self-assurance comes to a certain degree from wild guessing (a tower such as EastWatch? Yes, it's definitely Eastwatch, put all your eggs in that basket).

Melisandre's visions can be trusted, but her interpretation of them can't. She's blind to everything she doesn't want to see, and too eager to offer prophecies that she made up of assumptions of her real visions. Just because she guesses it right some times isn't enough to follow her blindly, because sooner or later she'll botch horribly in her guesses.

I always assumed this was the case, though. Perhaps others had a totally different interpretation of the character and so it blew their minds, but for me it was like "Okay, so tell me something I didn't know?"

As for her visions leading to Jon when she asks to see Azor Ahai... it's interesting but not confirmatory, that he actually is AA. Clearly in the past she'd asked to see AA and the flames had shown her Stannis. It may be that R'hllor just sends her images of the person He currently wants her to work with in order to defend the realm. For example, she had to work with Stannis to get him to unite the North against the threat. Now, she needs to work with Jon for whatever reason. Perhaps He will send her visions of Dany some time later. Or maybe all 3 of them are different aspects of Azor Ahai.

[Lady Tanalyth]

Really? Nobody is intrigued by the fact that Melisandre privately feared that her skin might have gotten charred from the ruby necklace if Jon hadn't had the fake!Mance taken out with arrows instead? (Or that she didn't, even for a moment, consider taking the necklace off? That'd be the first thing any normal person would do if something were burning them.) This was one of the most interesting things about the chapter to me. Not only does she not always know what she's doing but it's even to the point where she endangers herself. Yet checking on her safety in the flames is the first thing she does everyday. Why didn't she see the risk or know that she'd feel intense physical pain in order to carry off this plan? And what would have happened to her if the Lord of Bones had burned to death?

[Valmy]

I'm surprised that when people read a new POV, it suddenly changes their opinion on the character and creates sympathy towards a character that wasn't sympathetic at all. It happened with Jaime in ASoS (granted, it took some time, but still), and now in ADwD with Reek (!!!) and now Melissandre (wtf?!) Apparently having a POV chapter makes readers forget everything they read about that character before.

I'm terrified at the notion of GRRM creating a POV chapter for Ramsay Bolton in the next book and then suddenly people will begin to say that flaying and torturing people isn't that bad because he does it with "good intentions". (If you can justify burning people alive because it's well-intentioned, you can justify ANYTHING)

Well even at her worst Melissandre seemed to be attempting to save the world from the Others. That was sorta sympathetic. People have gotten slaughtered in this series for far less. I never suspected Jaime or Theon had anything but egotistical reasons for their actions.

This chapter makes it clear that Melissandre is indeed a true believer and not some charlatan. It is hard to call her a misguided fanatic in a world where, it seems, all this other crazy stuff is real. But we will see.