indiesque Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 But he's thought to himself more than once in this book about being a kingslayer (not kinslayer)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malarky1231 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 It might be his state of mind at the time. Or it might mean that his word to Joff right before Joff died implied that he would've wanted Joff dead anyways, even if it wasn't him who murders Joff. His behavior to Joff, however justified, basically sealed his fate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All-for-Joffrey Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 No he just says it so people are aware of his reputation. He doesn't actually believe it. But telling everyone he actually did kill Joff would create fear and loathing. He can use that to his advantage. And it's not like anyone would believe him if he told them otherwise. He's so jaded at this point I don't think he gives a shit anymore either.This isn't something he says out loud to someone this time, this is something he thinks to himself internally. It's in italics. I think it's pretty clear at this point that he's tricked himself into believing he killed Joff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NW Deserter Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Moqorro says that Salaesori Qhoran means "fragrant steward." Is it much of a jump to "perfumed seneschal"?Completely missed that, brilliant!It occurred to me that GRRM might be playing around with the idea of the dwarf's penny - the tax Tyrion imposed on the KL brothels that helped the realm's finances. Now Tyrion has his own Penny.Holy crap I freaking love this!How the heck do you guys realize all this stuff on the first read?! I consider myself lucky if I remember what happened in the last PoV. :stunned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indiesque Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 This isn't something he says out loud to someone this time, this is something he thinks to himself internally. It's in italics. I think it's pretty clear at this point that he's tricked himself into believing he killed Joff.I think Malarky is right - it's not that he's actually forgotten, it's just that he feels there's hardly any difference. Joffrey died, someone else did it, but Tyrion would have been willing to do the same in a heartbeat.. .and the events that evening were so entwined with the incidents between him and his nephew... even if he didn't put the poison in, he thinks he "as good as" murdered Joffrey, and he certainly doesn't care who thinks it's true at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limbstan Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 This isn't something he says out loud to someone this time, this is something he thinks to himself internally. It's in italics. I think it's pretty clear at this point that he's tricked himself into believing he killed Joff.I don't think he's made himself believe it, he just doesn't give a shit if people believe that about him. He says "Call me kinslayer and you won't be wrong. Kingslayer, I'll answer to that as well."He doesn't say that he actually is that, just that he'll answer to it.When he thinks that "I made them laugh at Joff instead. And wasn't that a clever ploy?"He was thinking how his mockery of Joff made him look guilty and so that was stupid of him to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyDogIsNamedDanerys Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 This Tyrion chapter was a bit boring as they usually are (just get to Meereen already), but I'm impressed by his kindness to the young Penny. Quite a change from two Chapters ago - he was utterly revolting in the whorehouse scene. Fucks one girl in a pool of his own vomit, and now he's all sweet words and kindnesses to this one? Well I guess there's a heart in there somewhere. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witless chum Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 He was thinking how his mockery of Joff made him look guilty and so that was stupid of him to do. This. If I remember the scene right, when Joffrey tells Tyrion to joust on the dog, he says something like "Only if you ride the pig, so I'll be sure to win." That's what really sets Joffrey off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valmy Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 This Tyrion chapter was a bit boring as they usually are (just get to Meereen already)The anticipation of the meeting in Meereen is just driving me nuts. LETS GET ON WITH IT ALREADY! It is sort of like what drove me feverishly onward in ACOK waiting to see the showdown between Stannis and Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wethers Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Having read just up to this chapter, I kept thinking that symbolically in Penny, Tyrion must to come to grips with an inside-out manifestation of himself.Penny's father was a dwarf but her mother was not. Tyrion's father was a dwarf emotionally but his mother was not.Penny outwardly cries and rails at the horrible injustices and cruelty she has suffered. Tyrion does that too, but only on the inside and covers things up with japes and false bravado on the outside.On the flip side, Penny mourns the physical death of her brother. Tyrion has been deeply wounded on the inside by emotionally 'losing' a brother that he had loved.Penny learned physical skills from her father, whereas Tyrion learned mental skills from his. Ok, that's reaching a bit... the juxtaposition only goes so far... time to keep reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogon's Mother Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I am not a fan of the Tyrion/Penny thing. Not sure where GRRM is going with it, but if it turns out to be a coupling (seems to me there are signs both for/against that) then I will disappointed. I just think it would be amazingly cliche. What I would like to see is a good brother/sister relationship develop here. Lord knows Tyrion could use a good 'sister' influence (even one so young)!I'd like to see penny get the bloody flux and be done with. She annoys the heck out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DragonKnight Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Moqorro says that Salaesori Qhoran means "fragrant steward." Is it much of a jump to "perfumed seneschal"?Wow, totally missed that! You may be on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I don't think he's made himself believe it, he just doesn't give a shit if people believe that about him. He says "Call me kinslayer and you won't be wrong. Kingslayer, I'll answer to that as well."He doesn't say that he actually is that, just that he'll answer to it.When he thinks that "I made them laugh at Joff instead. And wasn't that a clever ploy?"He was thinking how his mockery of Joff made him look guilty and so that was stupid of him to do.This makes sense. I was wondering about that myself.I agree the ship is the perfused senschal.I liked the description of the fall of Valyria, reminds me of Atlantis in a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Midknight Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Well... Tyrion being Penny's father... I think he is. 1) Everyone is assuming that Tyrion's age for her is accurate. He could be mistaken. He is a great judge of character, but of age? We do not know. I never seen Tyrion guessing people's ages before. 2) Penny stating what her father said or did does not prove that her father was her father. He could have been her adoptive father. Tysha could have married him because he reminder her of Tyrion (who she loved). Tyrion made her laugh according to Tyrion's tale. Not to mention that Hop-Bean was a mummer slave who traveled to Oldtown and Westeros. He brought his freedom (possibly the coin that Tywin paid Tysha). She didn't want the coin, it was sour money anyway. She gave him the money and he brought his freedom. In exchange, Hop-Bean agreed to be the twins' (Oppo as well) father. The tilts was his jape on Tyrion being a son of a lord and the children being his. Simply what Penny says is not necessarily valid as gold. The name it self suggests that she is. Tysha was given gold and silver, which she never wanted. The thing she prized most was the Penny (her child). The name brings a bad taste to Tyrion's mouth (why?). Tyrion is not attracted to her (why?). Tyrion comforts her and lies to her like a father protecting his child (why?). Tyrion's conscience knows the truth, he has not realized it himself. I could be wrong, but the connections are too great. Not to mention the one thing Penny says about Oppo. The knights killed him because they thought he was Tyrion. I do not remember the dwarves in the tilt as Joffrey's wedding every opening their helms. However, this would seem to suggest that Oppo looked like Tyrion (because he was his son). Tyrion reminds her of Oppo, because as she stated "he always knew what to do and where to go." I could be wrong, but It seems too clearly written in the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pourthedamhypocras Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Oh Tyrion's is so Penny's her father ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pourthedamhypocras Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Tyrion is Penny's father..and the bother "Oppo" may mayhave been older but, Cerise is "older" than Jamie. The question must be be answered "Where do whores go"? all will be revealed right before they get ready to eat the damn mushrooms in some desperate hour. I think she and the idea he has a child, and possibly Tysha is going to bring poor Tyrion back from the brink. Tysha probably saw lots of good reasons for marrying a second Darwf when she had dawrf children not the least of which was show them how to earn a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forelver Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I don't think he's made himself believe it, he just doesn't give a shit if people believe that about him. He says "Call me kinslayer and you won't be wrong. Kingslayer, I'll answer to that as well." He doesn't say that he actually is that, just that he'll answer to it. When he thinks that "I made them laugh at Joff instead. And wasn't that a clever ploy?" He was thinking how his mockery of Joff made him look guilty and so that was stupid of him to do. This was exactly the way I read it too. Wow I didn't pick up on the perfumed seneschal or the dwarf's penny-glad I have these threads to come to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayteStone Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 My take on Tyrion calling himself a kingslayer--Since he lost his trial by champion in single combat, is it possible he's internalized Oberyn's defeat as a sign of being guilty? Tyrion has never struck me as a religious fellow, but in the eyes of the Seven, his defeat signifies his guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Edward the KnightHawk Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 So does everyone agree it's Euron that Moqorro is talking about at the end? I don't know who else it could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennelyn Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 If this ship is the "perfumed seneschal" I'm not sure why Dany should beware since they seem to be on her side. Maybe because of Jorah, but he also is devoted to her. Maybe Quaith doesn't really understand her prophesies completely like Melisandre. Or maybe Penny is a faceless man sent to murder Dany! Aahh!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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