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{ADWD Spoilers} Sansa Stark


Alexia

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Okay, I admit it, I'm cheating. This book is full of my least favorite characters (Jon and Daenerys) and so I'm reading the characters I'm actually interested in (Arya, Jaime, Cersei, Theon, Ser Kevan...) before I go back and read the whole thing in consecutive order. And so I stumbled across this interesting line:

"Is that why you killed all the Starks?"

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other, if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

"The goods are good," his hostage said, uncertainly.

You go on believing that. Jaime let Honor feel his spurs.

What the hell does this mean? Will Sansa stay Alayne -- is that being foreshadowed for her? How does this tie into her arc with the Hound? Equally interesting are Cersei's thoughts about how she would have made a good marriage for Sansa to some Lannister, and how Baelish asked permission to marry her. I confess I have no idea what the heck GRRM plans for Sansa but this intrigues me. How do these words intersect with Sansa's arcs with LF, and with the Hound?

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Just go on and read the book the way you are supposed to read it, and stop cheating. I got through the Reek chapter, so you have to share my disgust.

No one cares about Sansa about in that book, and neither should you. She does not appear here, and Jaime most certainly has no idea about her, so that tidbit is my mind just what it appears to be - Jaime's hope for Sansa, not something that is foreshadowing her fate.

Although if you have already read Cersei's second chapter, we could discuss Littlefinger's weird suggestion to marry Sansa if there had been a peace with House Stark back in AGoT. It is indicated that Littlefinger decided to arrange Ned's execution after Cersei put down this most gracious offer of our good Lord Petyr. He was too lowborn after all.

The irritating thing about that one is, in my opinion, that the textual basis of AGoT and ACoK does support the idea at all that Cersei ever thought about dissolving the betrothal between Sansa and Joffrey before the Tyrell match came up - her betrothal is only formally dissolved at the end of ACoK.

Neither before nor after Ned's execution was talked about the fact that the daughter of a traitor and a Great Lord executed by the King for treason would make no good match for the King. It makes sense that Cersei would not have wanted to marry Joffrey to Sansa after Ned's arrest and subsequent execution, but this is never made plain in the text.

I'm not sure if that is a retcon or a continuity error...

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I think the only thing that was made clear with respect to Sansa in ADwD is that Littlefinger ultimately means to marry her. Beyond that, the more I read interviews with the writer, the more I think all the Starks will ultimately reunite. He has implied it now, in several of his answers to questions about where the story is going.

That said, since Jaime has now followed Brienne, I'm going to assume he is going to face Catelyn soon and I don't think he'll die (i.e., Maggy the Frog). Which makes me suspect he might actually take up the Sansa quest himself, with Brienne as hostage.

Also, as a side note, how can you put up with the series and dislike both Jon and Daenerys? Not as a knock or anything, but it is rather strange reading a fantasy series when you dislike two out of three leads. I'm not sure I could bear it myself.

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I share your frustration at hearing nothing, nothing at all about Sansa/Littlefinger. But I think it's really interesting that Littlefinger's interest in marrying Sansa dated that far back-back when Catelyn was very much alive and present. It raises some more interesting questions about his motives.

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*sticks tongue out at Lord Varys*

I care about Sansa in this book even if you don't, damnit! :tantrum:

I still find it a bizarre thing for Jaime to suggest out of the blue like that. And...I agree with you about the oddness that this is the first time that Sansa was cast in doubt as a marital prospect for Joffrey. Even in AFFC, that never came into question. Nor did Cersei ever think about how LF wanted to marry Sansa -- which is clear now.

Sualk, this is an ensemble cast. I don't care for Jon and Daenerys, but I adore Sansa, Arya, Bran, Cersei, Jaime, Theon, Catelyn, Tyrion... I may not adore them all as characters, but I find their arcs gripping and fascinating. That makes up for not liking two characters who are in far-flung situations that have nothing to do with the current, main action... The War of Five Kings.

ETA: Lord Varys, I read the Reek chapter (Theon being a character that interests me) and I share your disgust. :thumbsdown:

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Also, I was amused that Cersei turned LF down on the grounds that he was too low-born to marry Sansa. His hopes for a marriage into one of the Great Houses get thwarted at every turn...

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I'd find it really interesting if it turned out Jaime was right--but about the wrong sister. There's been all that Arya/Gendry speculation! ;) Of course, Arya would have to go through some huge upheavals to end up back in a position to have a "normal" life.

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Okay, I admit it, I'm cheating. This book is full of my least favorite characters (Jon and Daenerys) and so I'm reading the characters I'm actually interested in (Arya, Jaime, Cersei, Theon, Ser Kevan...) before I go back and read the whole thing in consecutive order. And so I stumbled across this interesting line:

"Is that why you killed all the Starks?"

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other, if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

"The goods are good," his hostage said, uncertainly.

You go on believing that. Jaime let Honor feel his spurs.

What the hell does this mean? Will Sansa stay Alayne -- is that being foreshadowed for her? How does this tie into her arc with the Hound? Equally interesting are Cersei's thoughts about how she would have made a good marriage for Sansa to some Lannister, and how Baelish asked permission to marry her. I confess I have no idea what the heck GRRM plans for Sansa but this intrigues me. How do these words intersect with Sansa's arcs with LF, and with the Hound?

I took the above to be less about foreshadowing and more about Jaime's regretful/cynical state of mind. Sansa is known to have run off after Joffrey's murder. Above, Jaime states she should stay hidden and try to make a happy, common life for herself. Preferable to the murder and treachery he has seen (and been personally involved in) within aristocratic/ruling circles. Jaime dealing with personal honor, and the lack thereof in Westeros, has been the developing theme for his character (and one of the better in the series), so I read the above more along those lines.

Little Finger has been clearly hot to trot for Sansa for some time, him angling for her with Cersei in the past doesn't really shake the current set-up. And though it may be a bit sappy, I was always fond of the seeds planted for Sandor to rescue her somehow.

Sansa has been an irritating character for me this far, perhaps the most notable victim of the Suddenly Stupid Stark Syndrome (whereas in a world populated by known treacherous actors, the Starks will consistently trust the wrong person or do the obvious wrong thing). But what's intriguing about her is that she's still kind of a blank slate. We can get the more obvious (and to me perfectly satisfying) pay off of her getting a back-bone and helping her remaining family and the North. Maybe even a little romance/heroism with a redeemed Sandor Clegane. Or......she can wear a villain hat along with Little Finger if Martin wants to add some punch. Unlike more established characters, her lack of emotional development (and frankly, fairly abusive treatment for some time)makes a 'heel' turn possible without over-turning any back-story applecart's. Not my preferred choice, but it's an avenue.

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Also, very interestingly, Cersei expressly indicated her opposition to a match between Margaery and Joffrey on the grounds that Joffrey was still betrothed to Sansa. Also, it seemed very obvious to me for the past four books that she wanted Joffrey to marry Sansa because she thought Sansa was a nitwit who would be easy for her to control (unlike Margaery).

I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling the sudden turnaround with what has come before...

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Alexia,

yes, that's exactly why I find this thing problematic at least. Ran, did you address this thing during your continuity read?

One Reek chapter is not really disgusting. They all are.

Oh, and Dany really is mortal in that one. She is not as stupid as Cersei, but pretty stupid and far from the Mary Sue she was in ASoS. If that is helping you to like her at least a little ;-).

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The only thing we found out is a confirmation of what we already knew from the Cersei chapter, that Littlefinger actually asked for Sansa as his wife and Cersei turned him down.

Littlefinger plans involve Sansa being his wife eventually.

Or he could have adjusted his plans since then (if he asked for her hand, this would have occurred around GoT/CoK, before any of her brothers "died"). Now that her brothers are apparently dead and she's the heir to Winterfell, it's a different matter than when she was just a Stark girl being kept hostage in King's Landing, a burden.

Littlefinger may have adjusted his plans to elevate her chances of taking her birthright back. Marrying her for himself would only decrease these chances.

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Varys, we'll see as I go along. I've made it past the first Jon chapter and I'm finding myself to be very interested now that he's facing down Stannis and other interesting characters. I'm actually partway through Tyrion's second chapter and enjoying that one too.

Daenerys suffers from the major problem of not being in Westeros or interacting with Westerosi. This book aims to change that, or so I hear, so we'll see what I think at the end. I don't hate her, per se, I'm just more invested in the Westerosi generally and the North specifically.

Reek's chapters are pretty disturbing (did we need that Jeyne, Ramsey, and Reek scene?) and so are Arya's (yes, I read her too!).

Littlefinger may have adjusted his plans to elevate her chances of taking her birthright back. Marrying her for himself would only decrease these chances.

This is what I am thinking right now -- to retake Winterfell, Sansa will need to marry either a lord with an army (Harry) or a Northman who can rally the rest and defeat the Boltons.

Despite what Jaime says, by now I believe that any Northern lord aside from Bolton and maybe Karstark would shelter Sansa if she ran North. Their reactions to "Arya's" plight are quite telling.

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That Sansa-Harry-scheme is doomed. Rickon will be in the game before they can make their move, and then that's no longer going to work. End of story ;-).

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Part of the thinks (hopes?) Littlefinger is playing a very long game. Sansa needs a lord husband to support her trying to regain Winterfell, not for anything else. But Petyr, I'm sure, could do with a few more titles and has proven himself adept at removing spouses. I've always been of the opinion he wanted to end up married to Sansa, but whatever else he could get added into the bargain on the way, like the Eerie, he would.

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Also, very interestingly, Cersei expressly indicated her opposition to a match between Margaery and Joffrey on the grounds that Joffrey was still betrothed to Sansa. Also, it seemed very obvious to me for the past four books that she wanted Joffrey to marry Sansa because she thought Sansa was a nitwit who would be easy for her to control (unlike Margaery).

I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling the sudden turnaround with what has come before...

I had the same impression, and the "Maggy the frog" prophecy in AFFC and Cersei's entire behaviour toward Margaery reinforced the feeling that Cersei wanted Sansa to marry Joffrey exactly because she was totally at the Lannisters mercy, and she was also stupid and naive according to Cersei. In other words, no danger of her plotting behind Joffrey's back and no ambitious in-laws to struggle with. And as the "younger queen" from the prophecy, she was neutralised by being nothing more than a somewhat glorified captive.

And Cersei did resist the notion to end the bethrotal between Sansa and Joffrey as late as mid-ACOK, when LF and Tyrion suggested a marriage to Margaery instead. She insisted Joffrey wanted Sansa and warned them what would happen if he didn't like Margaery (guess he ended up liking her, up to the wedding at least - but he was still planning to harass Sansa anyway).

Given that, I indeed have a hard time reconciling this with the notion that Cersei didn't intend for Joffrey to marry Sansa after Eddard's beheading. Sansa clearly felt so too, which is why she ended up setting her room on fire when she got her period.

It's also surprising that LF already in AGOT openly showed interest of this kind in Sansa - surely Cersei should have considered that when mulling where Sansa might have gone? LF really seems to lose his brains where Sansa is concerned, normally he doesn't show to anyone what he really wants. Is that why LF asked for those tapestries, to show if Cersei still looked at him favourably?

I'm pretty sure Winterfell will be taken by (un)Jon and/or Stannis in the next book - though the presence of Sansa would surely be appreciated by Jon. He could use her to cement an alliance with the wildlings (marrying Mance Rayder, say) and/or to be the Stark in Winterfell if Jon doesn't want to take it himself and Rickon or Bran are not yet available (or maybe just not fit for this, in case of Rickon who is both extremely young and quite wild).

The best thing to happen to Sansa in TWOW would probably be if Jon could take control back over Winterfell and she could escape from LF's clutches shortly after to return north. Then she is finally among friends without the need to hide who she is. But I guess she will remain in the Vale for some time to come.

Regarding what Jaime said, I agree with Ygritte that if anything it may be foreshadowing for Arya, who is also more or less forgetting her identity (maybe to an even larger degree than Sansa, who plays at being Alayne for her safety and to please LF) and who just might wed that blacksmith. Not that that would make her children safe like Jaime thinks, as common folk in the riverlands can testify.

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That Sansa-Harry-scheme is doomed. Rickon will be in the game before they can make their move, and then that's no longer going to work. End of story ;-).

Not necessarily. Sansa Stark is still eligible to wed the Lord of the Vale; she'll just be Lady of the Vale instead of Lady of Winterfell and the Vale. I wouldn't call that 'doomed.'

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I'm not so far along yet -- what does Tyrion think of Sansa? When I was flipping forward, I encountered a paragraph in which he thinks that she was "false" but I'm curious about this.

Not curious enough to read Tyrion out of order, it intersects with too much else for me to do that, but still...

Another thing I found interesting is how Cersei finally appears to realize how badly she treated Sansa. I never felt that Cersei "got" that, and to hear her refer to Sansa as "little Sansa" and see her accusing face in the crowd, and to feel bad over Sansa's wolf, was somehow jarring. Given that just a book ago she was promising to have Sansa tortured to death for murdering her son...

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Another thing I found interesting is how Cersei finally appears to realize how badly she treated Sansa. I never felt that Cersei "got" that, and to hear her refer to Sansa as "little Sansa" and see her accusing face in the crowd, and to feel bad over Sansa's wolf, was somehow jarring. Given that just a book ago she was promising to have Sansa tortured to death for murdering her son...

OK. What has happened to the real Cersei and who is this impostor!?? :shocked:

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