{ADWD Spoilers} Sansa Stark

[Maltaran]

Here's one interesting note. If Jaime and Cersei die before Tyrion (not that I necessarily think this will happen, but it's plausible with both of them no longer protected as they once were), then once Tyrion dies, Sansa is widow-heir to Casterly Rock, and all its gold.

IIRC, that would only work if there were no other Lannisters. As it is, Lancel would be next in line, or if he's disqualified for being one of the Faith's knights, then Kevan's other son - Martyn, I think the name is. (I believe Kevan is the oldest of Tywin's brothers - if I'm wrong and Tygett is older, then Daven would be the heir)

[Wouter]

He might know where she is or he might not, but I think right now he doesn't give a dime. Aegon has to properly land, rise an army, and seize the throne. And what can Sansa of house Stark give him? Winterfell, full of ashes and traitors? North, divided with Frays lurking from every corner? To be a match for him she would first have to have the northmen behind her. And I doubt she can be another Lyanna. Her looks speak Tully.

Lyanna only had meaning for Rhaegar, "Aegon" wouldn't care (and most likely is fixated on Dany anyway, as one would expect from a proper or even non-proper Targaryen).

Having said that, I suspect Varys may have made an attempt to take Sansa during the KL riot in ACOK, when Tyrek disappeared (possibly in Varys' hands now - doubt he really ended up in a bowl of brown). It's always handy to have the supposed heir to the north in your hands, and if her brothers resurface (though I doubt Varys suspects that development) you have a very good hostage.

If he knows she's in the Vale (and if he cares even a bit, he knows, I'm pretty sure), he could attempt to have her abducted if this can be done with relatively little trouble. OTOH, I guess LF will have her well protected and surrounded by the Gates garrison, but if Sansa would be so unwise as to ride off alone he may have a shot.

[Wouter]

IIRC, that would only work if there were no other Lannisters. As it is, Lancel would be next in line, or if he's disqualified for being one of the Faith's knights, then Kevan's other son - Martyn, I think the name is. (I believe Kevan is the oldest of Tywin's brothers - if I'm wrong and Tygett is older, then Daven would be the heir)

And the Lannister household would not accept Sansa I think (even if all those other heirs were dead), nor would Sansa want to have anything to do with a Lannister place full of Lannister knights, Lannister men and Lannister servants.

[Fez]

And the Lannister household would not accept Sansa I think (even if all those other heirs were dead), nor would Sansa want to have anything to do with a Lannister place full of Lannister knights, Lannister men and Lannister servants.

All true. But I find it hilarious to think that Sansa is slowly but surely moving up the succession list for over half the realm at this point. After Harry the Heir has his LF-arranged accident she needs to finally marry Willis Tyrell too.

The series could end with her just straight up inheriting the entire realm.

[PreciousLittleBird]

what is the clegane house motto? O.o I thought you were supposed to learn of it in ADWD???

[corbaekin]

IIRC, that would only work if there were no other Lannisters. As it is, Lancel would be next in line, or if he's disqualified for being one of the Faith's knights, then Kevan's other son - Martyn, I think the name is. (I believe Kevan is the oldest of Tywin's brothers - if I'm wrong and Tygett is older, then Daven would be the heir)

Basically, it's a question of how the succession runs: is it in direct line, or is it direct line of descent? I.e.: From Tywin it could go two ways: either to heirs of his body, or heirs of his blood. If to the first, then it goes to Jaime, then Cersei, then Tyrion: Jaime is ruled out for being Kingsguard I have heard from one source, but I'm not sure that Kingsguard give up their lands/titles, can't recall a source on that. Possibly then to Tyrion if it goes to male heirs next. Possibly to Cersei if it goes to heirs male and female in order of birth.

So if Cersei goes before Jaime and the Kingsguard is NOT ruled out of line of succession, Jaime-to-Tyrion would be a more direct leap than Jaime-elsewhere.

[Stuart Langridge]

Here's one interesting note. If Jaime and Cersei die before Tyrion (not that I necessarily think this will happen, but it's plausible with both of them no longer protected as they once were), then once Tyrion dies, Sansa is widow-heir to Casterly Rock, and all its gold.

One interesting question is whether Tyrion is actually heir. He is guilty and convicted of regicide. (Note: he's not just accused; he's guilty. He elected for trial by combat, and lost.) He's also guilty of parricide, although not convicted of that yet. If you kill your father, are you barred from inheriting from him? If you kill the king, are you barred from inheriting anything at all? (Or is the assumption that you won't inherit because Ilyn Payne has chopped off your head, and therefore there's no bar to inheritance?) That wouldn't surprise me. Since inheritance in Westeros is masculine, Tyrion would be in theory before Cersei, but since Jaime's out of it (because he has a white cloak), if Tyrion can't inherit because he's excluded then Cersei's actually in the chair. My assumption is that if Tyrion's eliminated for legal reasons then so are his heirs, Sansa being among them. So then we're down to Lancel, who'd be the worst king ever (although Varys would probably like him as king almost as much as Cersei the Nutter).

[Wouter]

I assume that Dany will overturn any verdict made by the Lannisters, if she wants to. If that is what she desires, Tyrion will have Casterly Rock. But if he's half Targaryen then he may even be King in the end and then the Rock would be for someone else.

Tyrek is also in the story for a reason, maybe he will have Casterly Rock at the end (if he's alive, but I think so).

[TMWNN]

The only thing we found out is a confirmation of what we already knew from the Cersei chapter, that Littlefinger actually asked for Sansa as his wife and Cersei turned him down.

Littlefinger plans involve Sansa being his wife eventually.

Right, and this does not contradict his once having asked Cersei for permission either; that was when he and Sansa were both in King's Landing.

Littlefinger once planned to rule the Vale through Lysa and Sweetrobin, probably with Alayne as his mistress. His problem is that, as consort to a now-dead woman who was only an Arryn by marriage, his standing is insecure. We know that his new plan is for Alayne, after safely married to Harry the heir and thus beyond the Lannisters' reach, to reveal herself as Sansa Stark, the heir to Winterfell. I suspect that young Harry will have an unfortunate accident, after which Lady Sansa will be free to marry a man who is now known to not be her father.

[Wouter]

Alexia,

yes, that's exactly why I find this thing problematic at least. Ran, did you address this thing during your continuity read?

Paging Ran: is it a mistake in this book that Cersei thinks that, after Eddards death, she would have Sansa married to some Lannister, breaking the betrothal with Joffrey? Or is this a case of unreliable/delusional narrator? In ACOK, Cersei kept insisting on Sansa marrying Joffrey in spite of everything until LF convinced her that Joff would have to marry Margaery?

[Alexia]

My assumption is that if Tyrion's eliminated for legal reasons then so are his heirs, Sansa being among them.

Sansa is not Tyrion's heir, Cersei is (in lieu of a trueborn child). However, the hilarious suggestion was once made that if Sansa were to have a bastard she could say Tyrion was the father and claim Casterly Rock in her child's name.

Anyway, IIRC Cersei bargained with the High Septon to attaint Tyrion.

[sweetrobin]

"Is that why you killed all the Starks?"

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other, if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

"The goods are good," his hostage said, uncertainly.

You go on believing that. Jaime let Honor feel his spurs.

When I read this, I laughed at the Gendry and Hot Pie reference. Good quote!

[Wouter]

When I read this, I laughed at the Gendry and Hot Pie reference. Good quote!

And the irony is, it's the real Arya who's "involved" with a burly blacksmith and a fat-faced innkeep, while Sansa has been wed and is slated to be wedded again.

[estrellas]

Real Arya is never going back to a normal life...as much as I'd like to see her settle down with Gendry eventually, it won't be as the mother of a litter of Baratheon kids. Faceless Men have no children, and while Arya seems to be a little scared of the Faceless path, I think she's going to walk it...I think she gets Cersei, too. Faceless Men have been referred to as valonqars.

[Ran]

I don't believe it's an error. We're not privy to the very earliest discussions between Cersei and the small council after the coup. They probably did discuss Sansa's fate, and from the text, it seems that Cersei had intended to marry Sansa to some other Lannister ... if things had gone correctly. But Joff killed Ned, and this led Cersei to cling to the idea of a Joff-Sansa marriage through ACoK.

Had I a guess, it was because she feared Joffrey having a queen that was not a girl she had the measure of, and could dominate as she did Sansa.

Cersei never did want a rival for her son's affections.

[trio]

Whilst I don't think we should treat Jaime's words as prophetic, one thing ADWD showed me is that everything we assume will/must happen to characters is wrong!

So maybe Alayne will fall in love with the first lowborn piece of tail she meets - after all, Dany did!

The marriage will stick - Tyrion certainly doesn't seem that bothered by it, and it's even a convenient excuse when deflecting Penny. But I no longer presume they'll ever meet again. In fact, I'd now bet money they won't!

[IceSt0rm]

What the hell does this mean? Will Sansa stay Alayne -- is that being foreshadowed for her? How does this tie into her arc with the Hound? Equally interesting are Cersei's thoughts about how she would have made a good marriage for Sansa to some Lannister, and how Baelish asked permission to marry her. I confess I have no idea what the heck GRRM plans for Sansa but this intrigues me. How do these words intersect with Sansa's arcs with LF, and with the Hound?

I think you're reading too much into it. he's just wishing she finds a better life rather than certain death playing the Game of Thrones.

[Wouter]

I don't believe it's an error. We're not privy to the very earliest discussions between Cersei and the small council after the coup. They probably did discuss Sansa's fate, and from the text, it seems that Cersei had intended to marry Sansa to some other Lannister ... if things had gone correctly. But Joff killed Ned, and this led Cersei to cling to the idea of a Joff-Sansa marriage through ACoK.

Had I a guess, it was because she feared Joffrey having a queen that was not a girl she had the measure of, and could dominate as she did Sansa.

Cersei never did want a rival for her son's affections.

I certainly agree that she wanted Sansa to be wife to Joffrey exactly because she could easily dominate her. So, the idea is that if Sansa would still have had affection for Joffrey (if he did spare Ned's life she would indeed be grateful) then she would have married her off to someone else?

That would make Cersei extra cruel. She basically decided to keep the betrothal exactly because she was now convinved Sansa would be miserable into it. :tantrum:

Cersei deserves what is coming to her.

Thanks for the reply.

[Wouter]

Whilst I don't think we should treat Jaime's words as prophetic, one thing ADWD showed me is that everything we assume will/must happen to characters is wrong!

So maybe Alayne will fall in love with the first lowborn piece of tail she meets - after all, Dany did!

The marriage will stick - Tyrion certainly doesn't seem that bothered by it, and it's even a convenient excuse when deflecting Penny. But I no longer presume they'll ever meet again. In fact, I'd now bet money they won't!

Alayne is already infatuated to some degree with Sandor, but I doubt much more will come from that.

But for Tyrion and Sansa: due to some offhand remarks in AGOT ("you will be queen one day" being a theme for Sansa in that book, and Tyrions shadow "stood as tall as a King, for a moment") and the way Tyrions storyline is going, sometimes I still see them winding up king and queen in the end. Much has been made of Catelyn and Sansa being dutiful, and she may end up doing like Dany did in ADWD. Especially as they already are married anyway.

I keep wavering on where Sansa will end up - the eventual fates of Martin's characters are hard to guess, though I suspect Jon's chances of eventual survival have taken a steep dive in this book (resurrected characters are unlikely to survive longterm IMO).

[zuziako]

Ok, I don't remember, but if the marriage was unconsummated, and the husband's gone missing, isn't Sansa of the hook after LF has a friendly chat with some Septon?