"Wildlings" vs "Civilized"

[Lucreel]

I've noticed, if you're paying attention while reading, you can find a lot of points of comparison between the supposedly "savage" wildlings, and the self-proclaimed "civilized" lords of the kingdom. . .

I've just reached the part where Sansa gets her "new gown" - that is, her wedding gown from Cersei, and is informed she'll be marrying the Imp. Of course, we knew this was coming since a few chapters before when Tywin informs Tyrion he'll be marrying Sansa. It occurs to me that their treatment of Sansa is no different than the "Wildling" custom of raiding a village, stealing a woman, and raping her - they just have nicer clothes and nicer castles.

[Ned'sHead]

Agreed. While I can't help but root for Jon Snow in his chapters, I actually sympathize with the Wildlings' quest to get past the wall. Mance seems like he'd make a better king than 4 out of the 5 southerners.

[tytos]

Except you know, the whole difference is respect for authority with an established order for it? While Mance may well be a great king, it would be absolutely stupid to let the Wildlings live south of the wall. I know there's war right now but during peace times they would actually just be an armed group of burglars and rapists.

Your Sansa comparison is foolish though. It is usually the will of the lady (or her parents, mostly the parents) to marry that makes it different from just raiding and raping. The Sansa instance is different since Cersei is acting in place of her parents. You may say that parents marrying off their children to whomever they please is the same as being invaded, raped and taken but I think there's a difference here.

[Lucreel]

Except you know, the whole difference is respect for authority with an established order for it? While Mance may well be a great king, it would be absolutely stupid to let the Wildlings live south of the wall. I know there's war right now but during peace times they would actually just be an armed group of burglars and rapists.

Your Sansa comparison is foolish though. It is usually the will of the lady (or her parents, mostly the parents) to marry that makes it different from just raiding and raping. The Sansa instance is different since Cersei is acting in place of her parents. You may say that parents marrying off their children to whomever they please is the same as being invaded, raped and taken but I think there's a difference here.

"Respect for Authority" - the only respect for authority that the Lannisters have is whatever can be forced upon them by lance, sword, and shield. They *know* Joffrey isn't the rightful heir, yet they present him as such. They go out through other Lords' lands raping, burning, murdering, torturing, and stealing. Where's your respect for authority there? Jaime attacked the Hand of the King and killed men, in revenge for his brother not being killed, but taken prisoner to stand trial for a crime (and if Catelyn hadn't been forced to head for the Aerie, he might even have got a Just trial).

Most of the trials in the books are shams, and the only real authority anywhere is the authority of Power. Sounds an awful lot like the wildlings' society to me.

As for the Wildlings, I tend to agree with you about it being difficult to let them live in the South, but perhaps they could broker a deal where, if the Wildlings will behave and help defend the Wall and the Realm against the White Walkers and their zombie apocolypse, they can live in 'refugee camps' in the lands immediately South of The Wall (that is, within Brandon's Gift) until the zombie apocolype is over (that is, during the Winter), and move back to the northern lands when spring comes.

Also, the Wildlings' culture of Raiding, as near as I can tell, is of necessity - there is no legitimate trade between the Kingdom and the Wildlings. From what I've read of the North, there is game, and timber, and probably mineral resources which could be traded, but they do not have good land for farming, they don't have the means to make steel and most other manufactured or craft goods. Seems like there ought to be opportunities for trade. I think the problem is, that the "Civilized South" would soon lay claim and try to conquer the Wildlings and take their freedom.

"Ever wonder why the Kingdom stops at the Wall, and doesn't extend further north?" If the Free Men began trade with the Kingdom, I bet there would be many in court asking that exact question.

Raiding and their way of life is their main defense, seems to me, against encroachment by the oh so civilized South.

[kUzE_the_Suresword]

"Respect for Authority" - the only respect for authority that the Lannisters have is whatever can be forced upon them by lance, sword, and shield. They *know* Joffrey isn't the rightful heir, yet they present him as such. They go out through other Lords' lands raping, burning, murdering, torturing, and stealing. Where's your respect for authority there? Jaime attacked the Hand of the King and killed men, in revenge for his brother not being killed, but taken prisoner to stand trial for a crime (and if Catelyn hadn't been forced to head for the Aerie, he might even have got a Just trial).

Most of the trials in the books are shams, and the only real authority anywhere is the authority of Power. Sounds an awful lot like the wildlings' society to me.

As for the Wildlings, I tend to agree with you about it being difficult to let them live in the South, but perhaps they could broker a deal where, if the Wildlings will behave and help defend the Wall and the Realm against the White Walkers and their zombie apocolypse, they can live in 'refugee camps' in the lands immediately South of The Wall (that is, within Brandon's Gift) until the zombie apocolype is over (that is, during the Winter), and move back to the northern lands when spring comes.

Also, the Wildlings' culture of Raiding, as near as I can tell, is of necessity - there is no legitimate trade between the Kingdom and the Wildlings. From what I've read of the North, there is game, and timber, and probably mineral resources which could be traded, but they do not have good land for farming, they don't have the means to make steel and most other manufactured or craft goods. Seems like there ought to be opportunities for trade. I think the problem is, that the "Civilized South" would soon lay claim and try to conquer the Wildlings and take their freedom.

"Ever wonder why the Kingdom stops at the Wall, and doesn't extend further north?" If the Free Men began trade with the Kingdom, I bet there would be many in court asking that exact question.

Raiding and their way of life is their main defense, seems to me, against encroachment by the oh so civilized South.

Here here!! Totally agree with all your points. The wildlings are not much different then the how the Lannisters use their might.

[tytos]

Yeah the Lannisters were in the wrong but that is a consequence of the system. They are very near the top of the power hierarchy so there's almost no accountability but think of the common man. He can't just take his neighbors stuff and wives because he knows there's a law of the land and knights will punish him. There's no such thing with the Wildlings who live in a lawless society. Think of Craster's keep. Do you think such a thing would be allowed south of the wall? I'm not saying they can't trade with or live in their own little areas. All I'm saying is that (1) They cannot integrate into civilized society. (2) Why civilized society is infinitely better. (even with the most power hungry leaders like the lannisters)

[Lord Tywin]

Yeah the Lannisters were in the wrong but that is a consequence of the system. They are very near the top of the power hierarchy so there's almost no accountability but think of the common man. He can't just take his neighbors stuff and wives because he knows there's a law of the land and knights will punish him. There's no such thing with the Wildlings who live in a lawless society. Think of Craster's keep. Do you think such a thing would be allowed south of the wall? I'm not saying they can't trade with or live in their own little areas. All I'm saying is that (1) They cannot integrate into civilized society. (2) Why civilized society is infinitely better. (even with the most power hungry leaders like the lannisters)

The Wildlings have been segregated in a half-frozen wilderness populated by Others and Giants. Stick Lannisters or Freys or Cleganes up there with no gold mines, no Casterly Rock, no ships, meager trade with the South, no sweet Arbor port, no maesters, and let's see how civily they behave. And I'm pretty sure Craster's Keep would survive in the South for as long as it served the Lannisters' interests.

[Lucreel]

And I'm pretty sure Craster's Keep would survive in the South for as long as it served the Lannisters' interests.

Yes. It's called "The Twins". :laugh:

[Silmarien]

I've noticed, if you're paying attention while reading, you can find a lot of points of comparison between the supposedly "savage" wildlings, and the self-proclaimed "civilized" lords of the kingdom. . .

I've just reached the part where Sansa gets her "new gown" - that is, her wedding gown from Cersei, and is informed she'll be marrying the Imp. Of course, we knew this was coming since a few chapters before when Tywin informs Tyrion he'll be marrying Sansa. It occurs to me that their treatment of Sansa is no different than the "Wildling" custom of raiding a village, stealing a woman, and raping her - they just have nicer clothes and nicer castles.

That's a good point.