[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ghost in Winterfell / "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell

[bemused]

:D Exactly. The hood is to help keep us from identifying him too soon.

But my bet is on Benjen.

[the old dude]

But my bet is on Benjen.

I'll take that bet. I'm guessing it is Hal Mollen. Furthermore, I also guess Ned finally made it back home. Well, his bones anyway.

As for Benjen. Hasn't GRRM said WoW will take us further North of the wall than we have seen so far. I am hoping this will be in some Benjen POVs. I know we've been told no new characters will get pov's. But does this also mean no new povs from "old" characters.

[bemused]

I believe that he said there would be no new POVs from characters we haven't met yet ( except prologues and epilogues ). But we've met Benjen.;)

[Mehmet Eren]

I always think it is Bran with using his abilities I dont know how maybe he warg someone,

[ReRe]

I think that the ghosts of Winterfell are those of the Starks buried in the tombs. It was said that the Starks were buried with their swords to keep their spirits from wandering. However, Ned's sword was taken from him. Also, Bran and Rickon took some swords from the crypts when they left Winterfell. Theon's journey into the crypts mentions the missing swords once again, so this is a clue that this is important in some way.

Anyway, it would be awesome if this were true. Then Ned and Lyanna could cause some serious havoc.

[Kingmonkey]

The ghost*S* certainly include the ghosts of Starks past, but that doesn't make them actual ghosts. Winterfell is haunted by its past, that's the theme of the chapter.

The ghost (no plural) of the chapter title is Theon/Reek, who is a ghost of his former self, the Theon-Who-Was, an adopted Stark ward who died at his own hand when he betrayed the Starks.

When I first read the chapter, I assumed the Hooded Man was the "ghost" of the Theon-Who-Was, and while I'm less sure now, I still lean towards that reading. This explains Theon's willingness to show his mutilated hand to the hooded man, whilst elsewhere he's very embarrassed by the mutilation and tries to hide it. Also, the hooded man calls Theon kinslayer, which Theon disputes by pointing out he was never actually a Stark -- why would he need to point this out? Who might forget that he isn't a Stark? Perhaps Theon-Who-Was, pre-turncloak, who tended to forget he was a hostage rather than a part of the family. On the other hand, Theon knows he didn't kill Bran and Rickon, which makes the kinslayer accusation a little odd in this reading too, but then Theon's sanity is threadbare at best at this point and his grip on what is and isn't real and what did and didn't happen can't be trusted.

[ReRe]

Could it be Eddard? The boys dreamed/saw their father in the crypt after he died, and there has been no proper burial for him there as yet.

Anyone NOT a Stark who tries to lord over Winterfell meets an awful fate, if there can be any lesson learned from Theon's experience. Doubtless and countless horrors await Ramsey Snow.

I totally agree with you on this point. I think Ned's ghost, as well as Lord Rickard's and Uncle Brandon's, are not "at rest," since their swords were taken from the crypts by Osha, Bran, and Meera. I didn't consider the fact that "there must always be a Stark (and ONLY a Stark) at Winterfell. Nice theory.

[ReRe]

How can anyone even believe or propose that an adult Stark, dead or otherwise, such as we have read about them, would even consider killing or even harming an 8 year old child? Forget it.

I don't accept the Manderlys are that sort, either. Nothing we know about them suggests it.

Also

- The night watch takes no part. There's no way Benjen is anywhere near Winterfell, especially not giving lectures to Theon of a moonless night while strolling around. He probably wouldn't even recognise him anyway, Theon has changed an awful lot, his sister doesn't know him.

- Everybody is enthused about Ned's ghost roaming around - fair enough; but his bones would have to be there first, last we know of them is, well, not much; nobody knows where he is exactly, the silent sisters departed but never arrived that we know of, if you remember. At least by the time Bran and Rickon left they hadn't arrived and the ironmen were already holding the fort (as for Ned's ghost killing young Frey it is preposterous. Ned died because he wanted to save Cersei's brood from Robert's wrath, and spends half his life trying to save (politically suicidally dangerous) Targaryen sprogs from Robert - his very best friend - as well, his (very well informed and up to date with goings-on after his death,somehow) ghost isn't going to take the Red Wedding onto an 8 year old that had nothing to do with it.

- If Ned can haunt the castle when his bones aren't there, then so can Robb; And Theon is a lot more likely to see or imagine Robb than Ned, as he was the only person he ever loved. more or less.

-Theon himself, or rather Reek is terrified of Little Walder, is a coward, and in any case is not a child killer - spent too long with the Starks for all that he's a vain worm playing at being a Kraken. The miller's sons have been killed by Ramsay, and the idea of it was Ramsay's; They're on his conscience, they keep coming back into his POV's rather often in fact, if you paid attention.

- Lastly, this is all silly. The hooded man probably has nothing to do with any murders but biding his time for whatever we haven't read about yet (it's obvious the Bastard letter is a fake, as if Ramsay really had killed Stannis and his army, he would have his wife back since that's where she and Theon fled to - not something Jon can know, but we do). Remember there was a host of squatters in the castle as well when the boys arrived.

edit: I did notice though, that Theon took over Reek after he met "the Ghost" and is coming back to himself pretty fast. Whether that's meaningful or not...

Re: Ned's ghost in Winterfell

Both Bran and Rickon saw their father in the crypts of Winterfell before they heard of his death. So, although his bones are not there, his tomb is. Bran's and Rickon's dreams alert them to the fact that their father is dead, but they also seem to suggest that Ned's spirit has returned to Winterfell, even if his bones have not. Well, that's my interpretation, anyway.

[ReRe]

The whole Winterfell scene with the Northmen like Bolton, Manderly etc... This was the best storyline in ADwD and will the most anticipated in the next book as to its resolution.

Agree! I could scarcely care about who sits upon the Iron Throne. The saga began with the Starks and the direwolves. Readers mourned their deaths, their losses, and their isolation. This was the only real family, and they were not corrupted or ambitious. So, I say, "Screw the iron throne and unite this family to live peacefully. Bring back Nymeria, too." The final novel was to have been called A Time for Wolves. I hope this is a good sign that some of my wishes come true.

[ReRe]

When Cat lists the Stark family tree there are several generations without any spare brothers, so for that time until Benjen joined there wouldn't have been Starks there.

I don't buy that the Starks have magic in their line myself. They are no more descended from Brandon the Builder than any of the other houses of the north. Starks being in Winterfell are important because after 1000's of years that is the proper order of things, and when the proper order of things is not right the bad times are always just around the corner. I think it's just symbolism that has been cemented into tradition.

The Starks are descended from Brandon the Builder, as well as from the First Men. There is magic in the line, because it is known that they can warg (Jon, Arya, and Bran, specifically).

[Bettley]

I'd love to believe that "The Ghost in Winterfell" is a reference to a reanimated Stark wandering around, but in all likelihood its just a reference to Theon.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Just wanted to say, if a skeleton Ned pops up and starts fucking up the Bolton's I would slightly forgive Grrm for killing him and nearly his whole family. A lil battalion of all the dead starks destroying the usurper of winterfell while Stannis comes at them from the front would be awesome, a northern sword sandwich.

The sweet summer child in me wants to believe this is happening haha

[ReRe]

ALL THE GHOSTS OF THE STARKS EVER.

Totally agree.

[ReRe]

I just had a thought in heresy that Stark might be a title instead of a name.

I can understand your frustration with the fact that sometimes posters are quite negative or do not respond. This happens to me often; so I have stopped posting recently, although I continue to read. However, your post inspired me to state that this cite shouldn't be simply a forum for friends who share similar philoshophies. I would like to believe that: (1.) All lovers of literature already share a common bond. (2.) We can agree to disagree, but that doesn't mean that disparaging comments are helpful to our purpose or for our dialogue. (3.) If everyone continued to agree, the earth would still be the center of the universe, and the earth would still be flat.

Intellectual discussion is stimulating and enlightening. I hope we can learn to respect each other's passions and viewpoints. Even if we sometimes disagree, we are always offered a fresh perspective.

OH....I hope I didn't offend anyone...again....just saying that's the way I wish this forum would work.

[alienarea]

I can understand your frustration with the fact that sometimes posters are quite negative or do not respond. This happens to me often; so I have stopped posting recently, although I continue to read. However, your post inspired me to state that this cite shouldn't be simply a forum for friends who share similar philoshophies. I would like to believe that: (1.) All lovers of literature already share a common bond. (2.) We can agree to disagree, but that doesn't mean that disparaging comments are helpful to our purpose or for our dialogue. (3.) If everyone continued to agree, the earth would still be the center of the universe, and the earth would still be flat.

Intellectual discussion is stimulating and enlightening. I hope we can learn to respect each other's passions and viewpoints. Even if we sometimes disagree, we are always offered a fresh perspective.

OH....I hope I didn't offend anyone...again....just saying that's the way I wish this forum would work.

Ok, fine. But how does it relate to my quote?