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[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ghost in Winterfell / "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell


Lord Damian

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He's like 10 or something. Is the Blackfish or Manderly really going to off a kid? I kinda doubt it.

The Blackfish I wouldn't think, but Wyman made Frey Pie and took six servings. He adores Wylla, and loathes Freys more than anything in the world. Plus he taunts them openly about Little Walder's death.

Is Wyman capable of killing a kid if that kid is a Frey betrothed to his granddaughter - 100% absolutely. It was made very clear in Dance that Wyman is capable of way more than anyone in the North believes.

or someone who was looking to stir up trouble between the Freys and the Manderlys, though for the life of me, I can't figure out who that would be.

No such party exists which is why you can't figure it out. Unless Martin is going to put in a new suspect in the new book - which we know won't happen, this mystery will probably be dropped and not brought up again, because we should already know the answer. The answers to this are in Dance.

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To find the killer let's just think about the motives. Why kill Little Walder?

1. He is a Frey.

2. He was a Stark ward/hostage. (the very meaning of hostage is that if something happens to one of the "host family", the same happens to the hostage). So maybe it was some kind of delayed justice.

3. He was in Winterfell when it was seized and put to torch. So he knows too much. He was killed because he started talking too much or somebody first got the information from him and killed him.

4. If you remember his behavior during his time as a ward, how he hated Bran and the wolves, so that he actually joined the hunting party after Bran and Rickon. If I were surviving eyewitness of these events from the Winterfell side, I wouldn't miss the chance and kill the bastard <_<

5. If I were Big Walder the only reason why would I kill my cousin is that he stands before me in the heritage line. (With all the Freys in the pie he is now the 7th).

6. Giving that he was not only some Frey, but also Roose Bolton's wife's brother and Ramsay's squire, probably the killer wanted it to lead to some major quarrel involving all the partys, so that they would eat each other like spiders in a box.

For me Lord Manderly is the most suspicious candidate, but on the other hand he is not that stupid to seak confrontation being outnumbered by Freys and Boltons. Perhaps, the killer wanted them to think it was Manderly, making them to open the gates and go out to meet Stannis.

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I am far more curious about the hooded man then the deaths. It was someone who knew who Theon was, yet was surprised to see him alive. So it couldnt have been anyone associated with the Boltons (especially since he had announced himself at the wedding.) So that rules out the Manderlys, the Dustins, etc etc.

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I am far more curious about the hooded man then the deaths. It was someone who knew who Theon was, yet was surprised to see him alive. So it couldnt have been anyone associated with the Boltons (especially since he had announced himself at the wedding.) So that rules out the Manderlys, the Dustins, etc etc.

Agreed. If it's not Theon having a psychic break, which I think is possible but doesn't quite feel right to me, there's a very interesting guest in Winterfell. The weird thing is, Theon doesn't seem to recognize him, really. Their eyes meet, the other guy recognizes Theon clearly, but no real hint that Theon knows who he is. It's fishy.

ETA:

I just saw the suggestion of Robbett Glover, which is interesting. Can anyone confirm if he is at Winterfell publicly? Even so, though, I don't think it would be him. He wouldn't be surprised that Theon lives.

What about Harwin? A Winterfell soldier of no particular repute would recognize Theon, but Theon could conceivably fail to recognize him. Lady Stoneheart would send her Winterfell man to the wedding of "Arya" and Ramsay, wouldn't she? And he would think about killing Theon but be hardened enough to chuckle about leaving him to Ramsay.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Harwin the Ghost of Winterfell. I hope it's true and we get more of him in Winds.

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Agreed. If it's not Theon having a psychic break, which I think is possible but doesn't quite feel right to me, there's a very interesting guest in Winterfell. The weird thing is, Theon doesn't seem to recognize him, really. Their eyes meet, the other guy recognizes Theon clearly, but no real hint that Theon knows who he is. It's fishy.

ETA:

I just saw the suggestion of Robbett Glover, which is interesting. Can anyone confirm if he is at Winterfell publicly? Even so, though, I don't think it would be him. He wouldn't be surprised that Theon lives.

What about Harwin? A Winterfell soldier of no particular repute would recognize Theon, but Theon could conceivably fail to recognize him. Lady Stoneheart would send her Winterfell man to the wedding of "Arya" and Ramsay, wouldn't she? And he would think about killing Theon but be hardened enough to chuckle about leaving him to Ramsay.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Harwin the Ghost of Winterfell. I hope it's true and we get more of him in Winds.

Actually thats a good point about Harwin. Surely Stoneheart would have heard of her daughters potential marriage to Ramsey, and attempted to intercede somehow. I dont think its Harwin, but it could easily be one of the other crew.

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I am far more curious about the hooded man then the deaths. It was someone who knew who Theon was, yet was surprised to see him alive. So it couldnt have been anyone associated with the Boltons (especially since he had announced himself at the wedding.) So that rules out the Manderlys, the Dustins, etc etc.

Howland Reed.

Kidding or not, it had to be said. There's also no exact proof that Theon knew him, only that he "Oddly, was not afraid".

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I think that Manderly killed Little Walder. His daughter, Wylla, was betrothed to Little Walder and I'm sure he didn't want that marriage to happen.

I think this is a more likely scenario for why if it was Manderly. Otherwise, Little Walder is not likely the most effective Frey target at the time. It still makes me thing it less likely that he had a hand in it, since he set off the Freys with his comment.

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Wouldn't Theon have recognized the Blackfish?

I'm pretty sure that Theon or any of the Stark kids apart from Robb never met the Blackfish. It was never mentioned in their PoV and we know Sansa definitely didnt from when she was worrying about where to go after she left Kings Landing.

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I'm pretty sure that Theon or any of the Stark kids apart from Robb never met the Blackfish. It was never mentioned in their PoV and we know Sansa definitely didnt from when she was worrying about where to go after she left Kings Landing.

Theon DID know the Blackfish, though. They both rode with Robb and took part in his war councils.

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I too don't believe the hooded man is Theon's imagination. The scene just doesn't play out that way, some of the dialogue that the man says as well. With regards to Theon not being afraid, this can be explained either by Theon thinking like Reek (the hooded man may be the murderer, but Reek is unworthy of being murdered) or Theon sees this as a potential release from his torment (several times he wishes for death).

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Actually thats a good point about Harwin. Surely Stoneheart would have heard of her daughters potential marriage to Ramsey, and attempted to intercede somehow. I dont think its Harwin, but it could easily be one of the other crew.

It would have to be Harwin, though, wouldn't it? The others wouldn't recognize Theon or have any particular knowledge about how to sneak into/around Winterfell.

I also really like the way this ties into what's going on with Mance and the spearwives. If they've been caught but the killings continue, including maybe even Roose himself (who might feel more at ease thinking that the murders had been solved), Ramsay would be freaking out.

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It would have to be Harwin, though, wouldn't it? The others wouldn't recognize Theon or have any particular knowledge about how to sneak into/around Winterfell.

I also really like the way this ties into what's going on with Mance and the spearwives. If they've been caught but the killings continue, including maybe even Roose himself (who might feel more at ease thinking that the murders had been solved), Ramsay would be freaking out.

I like the idea of it being Harwin as I've been wondering if he would show up again. He could at least be used to provide the information that Arya escaped King's Landing to someone who wanted to put the screws to the Boltons.

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Agreed. If it's not Theon having a psychic break, which I think is possible but doesn't quite feel right to me, there's a very interesting guest in Winterfell. The weird thing is, Theon doesn't seem to recognize him, really. Their eyes meet, the other guy recognizes Theon clearly, but no real hint that Theon knows who he is. It's fishy.

ETA:

I just saw the suggestion of Robbett Glover, which is interesting. Can anyone confirm if he is at Winterfell publicly? Even so, though, I don't think it would be him. He wouldn't be surprised that Theon lives.

What about Harwin? A Winterfell soldier of no particular repute would recognize Theon, but Theon could conceivably fail to recognize him. Lady Stoneheart would send her Winterfell man to the wedding of "Arya" and Ramsay, wouldn't she? And he would think about killing Theon but be hardened enough to chuckle about leaving him to Ramsay.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Harwin the Ghost of Winterfell. I hope it's true and we get more of him in Winds.

Theon/Reek would recognise Harwin or Glover. Glover from the period between Robb calling the banners and splitting his forces at the twins, Harwin was part of the community at Winterfell where Theon had lived for many years - its hard to imagine that he wouldn't have recognised him.

Then you have to assume that Harwin/Stoneheart's band find out about the 'Arya' marriage sent Harwin (to do want precisely? Prevent it or just kill people randomly for no particular reason?) who is then somehow able to smuggle himself into Winterfell.

If Harwin, or the Blackfish was there to rescue Arya then just as with Mance Rayder and his merry maids it doesn't make any sense for them to be murdering people - why give everybody a reason to be watchful and alert? If you want to rescue Arya surely you want everybody to be dozy and relaxed?

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Theon/Reek would recognise Harwin or Glover. Glover from the period between Robb calling the banners and splitting his forces at the twins, Harwin was part of the community at Winterfell where Theon had lived for many years - its hard to imagine that he wouldn't have recognised him.

Then you have to assume that Harwin/Stoneheart's band find out about the 'Arya' marriage sent Harwin (to do want precisely? Prevent it or just kill people randomly for no particular reason?) who is then somehow able to smuggle himself into Winterfell.

If Harwin, or the Blackfish was there to rescue Arya then just as with Mance Rayder and his merry maids it doesn't make any sense for them to be murdering people - why give everybody a reason to be watchful and alert? If you want to rescue Arya surely you want everybody to be dozy and relaxed?

I think of Theon as the kind of kid who might not really pay that much attention to these things, particularly to people he felt beneath him. So, I agree it's not Glover (for reasons already stated), but I'm not so sure Theon would recognize Harwin. Maybe he *should* recognize him, but maybe he didn't look so closely at the faces of random Winterfell men that were not deemed important for him to remember.

As for whether Stoneheart would send someone, I agree that aspects of this don't feel quite right. Why would she wait so long? Does she really think this might work? Why wouldn't he act sooner to try to save Arya or something (possible answer: he noticed it wasn't really Arya -- though if he'd managed to see her, it would probably be at the wedding, which in turn *should* mean that he should already know that Theon lives when he encounters him in the yard). So, I get the skepticism.

However, Harwin is still the most elegant solution I can come up with. Here are the assumptions that lead me there:

1) Theon is not having a psychotic episode, and the person he encounters is real.

2) The hooded man recognizes Theon, and is surprised that he is alive.

3) He seems to bear Theon considerable ill will, calling him "Theon Turncloak" and "Theon Kinslayer" before eventually laughing at the thought of leaving him to Ramsay (instead of killing Theon himself, perhaps).

4) Theon does not appear to recognize this man.

5) However, he is not afraid (perhaps because he has a vague sense of familiarity, or perhaps because Theon welcomes the idea of death anyway, more or less, or some other reason).

I believe all those things are true. If they are that means that Theon did in fact encounter a man who:

1) Knew Theon by sight immediately.

2) Bore him considerable ill-will.

3) Was surprised that he's still alive.

4) Managed to be unrecognized by Theon.

Those people seem to be in pretty short supply to me. So, unless we're making a mountain out of a molehill, or Theon is too unreliable of a narrator at that point for us to effectively theorize about what happened, the only person I can come up with who makes sense is Harwin.

It may be kind of implausible that the Brotherhood without Banners would send someone to sneak into Winterfell, but isn't that true of basically anyone we could think of? And yet the man is there. Maybe it's some random Manderly soldier who skipped out on the wedding, but it feels written like we're supposed to wonder who that is. And if we're supposed to wonder, there should be an interesting answer.

Anyway, I'm sure there are other possibilities out there, but none of the ones I've read really make sense to me, except this.

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