[ADwD Spoilers] Ashara Dayne

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Isn't it possible that Ned was a teenager so overcome with love and lust that he broke his own moral code to sleep with Ashara? He was surrounded by men who had no problem having sex out of wedlock and having illegitimate children, and he was not the fully formed uptight Ned Stark we all knew and loved in GoT. Yes, it's out of character now, but then? Maybe it made his character what it was, seeing as how Ashara (allegedly) chucked herself out of a window after seeing him one last time. That would make anyone rather reticent about careless behavior in the future. Regret can do that to a person.

[corbon]

Isn't it possible that Ned was a teenager so overcome with love and lust that he broke his own moral code to sleep with Ashara? He was surrounded by men who had no problem having sex out of wedlock and having illegitimate children, and he was not the fully formed uptight Ned Stark we all knew and loved in GoT. Yes, it's out of character now, but then? Maybe it made his character what it was, seeing as how Ashara (allegedly) chucked herself out of a window after seeing him one last time. That would make anyone rather reticent about careless behavior in the future. Regret can do that to a person.

Robert explicitly complains to Ned that he was "never the boy he was" (that he never abandoned his honour) "except that one time with the mother of his child" (whom Robert thinks is Wylla, not Ashara and is probably just making an assumption based on Ned turning up after the war with Wylla and Jon in tow).

So while anything is 'possible', Robert, whom Ned spent more or less his entire youth with as joint ward of Jon Arryn says it was always Ned's character to be like that.

My huge problem with the Brandon-Ashara theory is mainly that there are so many people (including members of the Dayne family) who believe that Ned and Ashara were in love with one another. How could those rumors have been generated if it was in fact Brandon? Where would the benefit in this deceit lie if they're just pinning it on one Stark instead of the other?

Explained already, repeatedly.

The rumours are generated because after the war Ned reappears at Starfall, with a bastard, and Ashara 'suicides'. People, even Ashara's family, put two and two together, especially if they knew something went on at Harrenhal (possibly with a Stark) but don't know what exactly.

The rumours are exactly what we would expect the uninformed to believe.

They might be accurate. They probably are in that Ned loved Ashara. But they are definitely second hand (there is no evidence that even Allyria Dayne was at Harrenhal or had meaningful contact with Ashara) and entirely explainable even if wrong.

We have absolutely no reason to believe that it was Brandon, except for the fact that he had a relationship with Lady Dustin outside of wedlock. There's no proof that he ran around deflowering every lords' daughters, or anything of the sort. We just know that he was the "brash youth" archetype that crops up in this series (see Jaime, Loras, etc.). Just because you're wild and an asshole doesn't mean you have to sleep with EVERYONE.

For the millionth time (it feels like), no one is suggesting Brandon does this all the time. Just that he's done it before, so clearly it would be not be out of character to do it again. Whereas it's not in Ned's character, and according to the man he grew up with (Robert) never was.

As for evidence that actually points to Brandon, we have Barristans fire vs mud musing. Someone who is there, someone unbiased, someone not actually thinking about the man, but the woman at the time. Its like 'accidental' evidence, which is more natural and more likely to be accurate than any rumour or verbal evidence.

Hell, in Jaime's case, he was faithful to Cersei, when his character would have lead you to believe he'd be a womanizer.

No it wouldn't, unless you were lazy. There is no indication that Jaime ever fooled around with women or girls other than Cersei.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Robert explicitly complains to Ned that he was "never the boy he was" (that he never abandoned his honour) "except that one time with the mother of his child" (whom Robert thinks is Wylla, not Ashara and is probably just making an assumption based on Ned turning up after the war with Wylla and Jon in tow).

So while anything is 'possible', Robert, whom Ned spent more or less his entire youth with as joint ward of Jon Arryn says it was always Ned's character to be like that.

Robert is saying exactly the same thing that I'm saying: Ned broke his moral code just that once. He regretted it and that turned him into the uptight adult who would NEVER do such a thing again. He was a shy, serious boy who did one crazy thing for love, and it turned out horrible. Isn't this a book riddled with examples of people doing crazy things for love and coming to rue them greatly?

Robert thinking it's Wylla is not inconsistent with this. Ned would never kiss and tell. He wouldn't want to shame Ashara. Probably he didn't know she was pregnant either until he saw her at Starfall. Nobody's perfect. Why should Ned be?

[Starks? In my Winterfell?]

I don't really want to jump in the pit (there seems to be some serious fighting in here) but re-reading tKotLT I found something that may be meaningless; speaking of Howland, after the feast "The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night...".

There are a few things that can be interpreted with that :

- Why is mentioning that it was Ned that offered the place in the tent any relevant?

- Is Ned offering the place in the tent means he wasn't going to his tent that night?

- Is Ned offering the place in the tent means that he was indeed in his tent that night, maybe grieving because there are things happening in Brandon's tent?

- Are tents for one or two people? If it's two why wouldn't Benjen and Ned sleep together? Or why is it Ned that offer the place? I mean Benjen already lent some of his clothes to Howland.

[Buried Treasure]

It was mentioned a page or so back that Ashara may have left Kings Landing for Starfall when her pregnancy began to show. I have an issue with this, as it makes the question of how Barristan knew what he thought he knew more problematic. If he is at Kings Landing and she at Starfall who tells him about the stillbirth?

There is no accumulated evidence for Brandon. There is Barristan using "Stark" and Barbrey Ryswell telling a story where she slept with Brandon. Just because Brandon slept with Ryswell does not mean he slept with any other noblewomen, or that he was any more likely to sleep with Ashara. We do have Barristan telling at least part of the same story as the Reeds, except he says "stark" instead of the "the shy wolf". The only evidence that Brandon was the one to dishonour Ashara was the fact that he was present at Harrnhal.

Agree, I have particular doubts about the first example. The use of 'Stark' is being used as evidence that it had to be Brandon because Barristan did not hate Ned. Reading the passage again though, there is bitterness that Barristan did not win the tourney (and the attention of Ashara as well) but no overwhelming hatred. He links her death to the stillbirth, and to the grief for losing her lover (whether to death or marriage is unstated), but not to the dishonouring itself. So he may not necessarily hate the man she loved.

The shortest time from Harrenhal to Ned going to Starfall was 2 years. It was most likely longer, but 2 years is the shortest it could have been. The stillbirth of her daughter would have been about 15 months prior to Ned showing up, if she got pregnant at Harrenhal. That does not fit the "soon after" reference in Barristan's memory. And really, what's the difference between shortly after and soon after.

If you are going to say: The dishonouring very likely connects directly to the pregnancy, so it is merely a matter of degree, or mistaken memory, that Barristan considers the "suicide" 'soon after' the stillbirth. It appears to be a year or more between the two events., then you are really trying to base your whole argument on a mistaken memory. Either his memory is accurate or it is not, it cannot be both. Either way there is not much of a window availabel for Brandon to fit as the dishonourer.

From a distance of seventeen years, events only a year apart can seem close together, so I don't make to much of Barristan thinking of her suicide as 'soon after'. Looking at the timeline rather than Barristans narrative, I agree if she was going to kill herself in grief it wouldn't be a year later. Which is one of the reasons I suspect Ashara was grieving because she had just learnt that her son's head had been smashed in.

The timeline suggests that Elia had to conceive just before or after Harrenhal, as Lyanna wasn't kidnapped til after Aegon was born. Presumably Elia was at KL, if Ashara was keeping close quarters with her it may explain how a KG knight knew of her pregnancy without it being widely known. Sickly Elia has a stillbirth but is desperate to give Rhaegar an heir and keep his attention from wandering. Ashara has a bastard but doesn't want this widely known. So, Dayne looks being similar to Targ looks, they swap. In fact, in the paragraph preceding the thoughts of stillbirth Barristan recalls Ashara's purple eyes 'Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter...'

[Starks? In my Winterfell?]

Have anyone considered that (not that I believe what I'm telling, it's only a theoretical suggestion) Selmy perhaps don't know what Stark dishonored Ashara?

Maybe he knows it's a Stark because "for exemple" he saw Ashara leaving a Direwolf-Siggiled tent. And perhaps all his life he wondered what Stark it was and seeing how Ned is always full of honor and given Brandon's possible womanizer reputation he may think it is Brandon but still is unsure. He sure saw Brandon talking to Ashara and Ned dancing with her.

My guess on the subject (which is totally different) lies with Tywin's words : Ned dishonored Ashara then promised to marry her. Ned's dad doesn't agree, Ned is sad. Selmy perhaps knows that, that's why he still have some respect for Ned, but deep down he still has some anger toward the Stark that dishonored Ashara. And Brandon's reputation is just here to mess with our brains.

Speaking of the Ashara's choice of the Stark, it seems to me that she would rather have chosen the guy who danced with her than the guy who asked her to dance with his brother. And about her suicide, Barristan said it was for the children and maybe the man, if indeed Ned can't marry her because Catelyn-Rickard-Whatever and her daughter dies in her childbed that seems pretty enough.

[neutronicus]

I bet a determined and forward Ashara Dayne could have had her way with 15-year-old Ned. If we let her take the driver's seat, and, come on, she's Dornish, it's within the realm of possibility, then the differing personalities of Brandon and Ned become less important.

[jxd]

"If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

There's a good chance the Stark was a different person than whoever dishonored Ashara Dayne. Otherwise Barristan would be drawing a parallel between him and that man.

[inkasrain]

It was mentioned a page or so back that Ashara may have left Kings Landing for Starfall when her pregnancy began to show. I have an issue with this, as it makes the question of how Barristan knew what he thought he knew more problematic. If he is at Kings Landing and she at Starfall who tells him about the stillbirth?

Arthur Dayne seems like a good candidate to me.

[Myrish swan]

Interesting to note that she had a daughter...not a son. But this certainly seems to cement the idea that Ned and Ashara were lovers, however briefly.

My theory is as follows-- both Ned and Brandon slept with Ashara Dayne. Brandon at the Harrenhal Tourney (and he was the Stark who fathered a child on her), Ned shortly after the War of the Usurper, when he went to Starfall to ask after Lyanna's whereabouts. (Thus, Ned would have banged Ashara AFTER his marriage to Catelyn.)

Here's how I see the whole thing going down:

Ned and his handsomer, taller, more athletic and far more charming/ suave brother Brandon meet Ashara at Harrenhal. Both are smitten. However, the nature of their feelings vary-- Ned "truly loves" Ashara and wants to wed her; Brandon just want to sex her up a couple of times. Ashara, too, is smitten... with the hunky Brandon, not the awkward, shy Ned. As a result, Ashara spends a lot of time hanging around the Starks at Harrenhal. As a result, Ned falls pretty deeply in love with the beautiful, spirited Ashara. (Hey, GRRM has always said a lot happened at the Harrenhal tourney.) Yet Ashara falls for Brandon, who proceeds to take advantage of this, and (somewhat understandably, imo) sew some wild oats, as he did with Barbary. After Brandon has deflowered Ashara and the tourney is coming to an end, Brandon announces his previous betrothal to Cat, and proceeds to dump Ashara.

Unfortunately, a bit later Ashara learns that Brandon Stark impregnated her. She proceeds to have the baby and it is a stillborn, as Selmy noted. Clearly, this is the scenario that a lot of people are suspecting after we learned what we learned in ADwD. However, here's my second part of the theory, where I differ from a lot of people: IMO, Ned slept with Ashara, too, after he was lawfully wedded to Cat.

I've heard many people note that the whole Ned/ Ashara thing was either a misinterpretation by those around them, or a rumor concocted to distract people from the truth in regards to the baby swaps. However, I.M.O., in AGOT alone, there is ample evidence that Ned feels highly guilty about something-- something clearly related to betraying Cat. He is haunted by something he did in the past; and I got the distinct impression that this is a separate (but perhaps related) issue from the Lyanna/ Jon promise.

First, in AGoT, when Cat mentions Ashara Dayne, Ned reacts with extreme anger, to the extent that he actually scares the blameless Cat.

“Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets… they whispered of… The lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshall her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

This was the only time in all their years that Ned have ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now, I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” (AGoT, p. 55.)

Not proof in itself of anything, but why, if it had been only Brandon who had banged Ashara, why would Ned flip out like that? Because he didn't want Cat to know that Brandon betrayed her? Because he wanted to protect his older brother's posthumous reputation? IMO, if it were just this, than Ned's reaction seems strange-- both extreme and overly emotional. He is acting like HE did something wrong, not like he is covering up the misdeeds of others.

Next, there is Ned's little freak out in the woods with Robert. Of course, I don't honestly think that Jon Snow is Ned's son, or that he ever banged a wet nurse named Wylla. However, let me quote his reaction to Robert's gentle teasing about him sleeping with some common girl. After Robert says, “You never told me what she looked like,” to Ned, Ned replies in the following manner: Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. ‘Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.” (AGOT, p. 92.) Now, these sound like the words of a genuinely guilty man, rather than just a man trying to cover up the true parentage of his sister's son. When you add Ned's character to this (the fact that he is such a lousy schemer, politician, and liar) the idea that he really DID "dishonor" Cat somehow in regards to infidelity becomes all the more likely. (Of course, if the Ned/ Ashara hookup had gone on at Harrenhal, it would be Ashara, not Cat, who he had dishonored before gods and men. The fact that Cat is mentioned as someone betrayed in this little outburst is significant. )

There is also Ned's thoughts outside of the Brothel... but I'll get to that issue in a little bit.

Anyway, why all this angst on Ned’s part? Because he slept with Ashara while married to Cat… and, he believes, he led Ashara to commit suicide. (I actually believe that Ashara is still alive and faked her death to disappear and raise her old friend Elia’s son, however, more on that later.) Here’s how it went: after Ashara gives birth to a stillborn girl, things proceed as we know them to—Lyanna runs off with Rhaeagar, Brandon flips out and threatens the life of the crowned prince, Aerys commences to murder Brandon and Lord Stark. Robert’s Rebellion commences, and Ned ends up marrying Cat in Brandon’s stead.

Anyway, after the sack of kings landing, Ned goes to Starfall to ask Ashara, the woman whom he still loves, the location of Lyanna. Ashara is vulnerable, and distraught over her dishonor and the loss of her baby. Ned is vulnerable and distraught over the death of the Targ kids, and Robert’s shitty behavior. Somehow, Ashara confides in Ned, Ned declares his love for Ashara, and the two end up sleeping together, one or more times. Ned, being Ned, is horror struck over his behavior—he has a duty towards Ashara, who he has just slept with, but also he has a duty towards his wife. He ends up telling Ashara that, though he loves her truly and feels nothing for Catelyn Tully, they can never be together, because he owes a duty to his wife. (Interestingly, these are probably almost the exact same words Brandon fed Ashara a few years before. However, in stark contrast to his brother, Ned actually means them.) Ashara accepts this, and tells Ned that she loves him too, but understands that his duty comes before his love for her. Ned leaves to find Lyanna.

However, when Ned gets to Lyanna, he is surprised by the fact that the knights of the kingsguard will not let him in to see his sister. He ends up fighting Arthur Dayne (which he may well have promised Ashara he would never do), and killing Ashara’s own brother. (Making Ashara, who willingly told Ned of Arthurs location, “responsible” for her own brother’s death.)

When he finds Lyanna dying after childbirth/ a medival c-section, Ned promises to claim Jon as his own bastard, to protect him from Robert. He decides to claim that Wylla, a wetnurse taken to help Lyanna in childbirth, is the mother. Yet, there is the issue that it takes nine months for a baby to develop…

When he takes Dawn to Starfall, he must tell Ashara, “hey, here’s my bastard, which I had with this wetnurse, Wylla.” This would cast a whole hell of a lot of doubt on Ned’s claims of true love for Ashara in Ashara’s own mind. Furthermore, she may well suspect that Ned’s claims of loving her were only a ruse used to get her to tell him the location of Lyanna. Thus, Ned may have feared that Ashara not only felt betrayed and humiliated by a lying Stark male once again, she may have, as a result of the news that Ned was banging another woman all along, have feared that Ned tricked her into telling him her brother’s location, thus making her responsible for Arthur’s death. Thus, Ned believes, these issues led Ashara to kill herself.

This makes perfect sense when considered in light of the things Ned thinks when leaving the brothel with LF. He thinks, “…that was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows.” (AGOT, p. 318) His vows? This could be some sort of reference to the promise he made to Lyanna to raise Jon, however, if there were the case, the context seems strange. Why is Ned comparing a promise he made to his sister with Robert’s breaking vows to the numerous woman he beds? It makes more sense to infer, from context, that Ned is referring to a time when he slept with a woman and was forced to abandon her because of his vows. His next thought is equally significant. “He thought of the promise he’d made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.” If Ned did agree to pretend to be Jon Snow’s father, then he may well have “paid the price” by having to tell Ashara that he had had another lover all along, breaking her heart and (Ned believes) leading directly to her suicide. Honestly, what other price did Ned pay for promising to claim Jon Snow as his own bastard? It did not ruin his relationship with Cat, so that was not really a price he’d paid. (Though Cat hates Jon Snow, this hardly seems to be something that ruined either Jon or Cat’s lives, or Ned’s relationship with either of them.) Ned believing he caused Ashara’s suicide would certainly be something that he felt was a price he’d paid in keeping his promise to Lyanna to claim Jon Snow as his own bastard child with Wylla. And that would explain a lot—the irrational freak out upon hearing Ashara’s name; his guilty outburst to Robert; his comments after leaving the brothel. Furthermore, the rumor that Ashara had killed herself for love of Ned would make some sense.

However, imo, I’m with the many who believe that Ashara faked her death. On learning that Varys had switched her old friend and companion Elia’s baby, she agreed to go off and help raise the true heir to the throne—but not before she faked her own death to put people off any possible trail. There are numerous reasons why Ashara might be motivated to do this. One possibility that I like is that perhaps Ashara did it out of love and loyalty to her old friend Elia. Ashara was at court for a while; perhaps the two grew close. More significantly, perhaps Elia supported and helped Ashara through her “dishonorable” pregnancy, where so many other noble women in Westeros would have rejected or avoided Ashara after her letting herself be “dishonored.” Perhaps the two grew extremely close during Ashara’s pregnancy; and/ or Ashara felt she owed Elia after all of the kindness and loyalty the princess had shown her. (I must admit, a big part of the reason why I like this theory is because it makes it so that at least one person besides Oberyn loved/ appreciated Elia.) Or perhaps Ashara merely realized that, as a deflowered noblewoman who had already born one child out of wedlock, she was basically “soiled goods” in her society. Rather than living as a social leper, she chose to abandon her old life, and start working for the greater good.

[Dio Forel]

I totally agree that the one who dishonored Ashara is different than the Stark who stole her heart. The first reaction is disdain towards the dishonor, the second reaction is more jealousy than anything. The latter is a demeanor of somebody feeling inferior therefor calling him Stark as a throwaway gesture of one who is jealous. Speaking of her dishonor was clearly a demeanor of somebody disgusted by the occurrence.

As far as the happenings of Eddard... Ashara... Brandon... Benjen... Lyanna... it is ALL hearsay. In reference to the convos b/w Arya & Edric and Bran & Reeds... these are the musings of little kids, nothing more. I sincerely doubt the hidden secrets of houses and the trysts of the lords were discussed in a non-romanticized way with the little kids. I don't know of many parents who go to their little kids and tell them about betrayals and adultery and the intricacies of what really happened in their lives. They tell them bedtime stories and fantastical versions of what actually happened to shield their naive minds from the cruel truths of the world. Why are we assuming that Edric or the Reeds would be privy to the exact details? Typically little kids are told the stories that the teller would prefer to be passed along. Look how cavalier the kids are just boasting about the "exact" truths of Harrenhal and such. They speak about it as if they are talking about the weather, with no desire for secrecy whatsoever. That is the nature of children, adults know this.

All I take from the conversations between children are romanticized versions of truths. Rumors, nothing more. Secrets that could change the worlds of houses and wars alike are seldom shared with children with such little regard for the esoteric nature of the discussion. If it was so secret to the point where it is a 20 page discussion in one thread and lord knows how many elsewhere, why would the exact happenings be divulged to a little kid who has no concept of what secrecy is?

As if there was a brainstorm about who could be trusted.. saying listen this is life changing.. the truth cannot be known.... but don't worry.. one day you can tell your kids the exact truth it's okay, THEY can keep a secret, just make them pinky promise not to tell and you're good to go. Hearsay of hearsay of hearsay is not very credible to me as fact, just mere insight into the basis for what could've happened.

[YoYoJonSnow]

Ned loves his brother and had a childhood crush (with possible stronger feelings) for Ashara Dayne. I don't think his memories would be nearly so fond or despondent if Brandon had slept with and impregnated his true love. All we know is that Brandon convinced her to dance with his superserious, dour-faced brother.

I'm just really not understanding this argument about Brandon and Ashara. GRRM is sneaky, but his clues are also thinly veiled. I don't think what's been written about Brandon or Ashara totals one full page and we've had sentence linking them together. Conjecture is fine, but there's no evidence, none, that Ned's beloved brother was a slutty fratboy sleeping with all the ladies. He deflowered Lady Dustin, fine, but he had a relationship with her and knew her for a significant period of time before getting into her smallclothes. I don't see this as evidence that Brandon was a randy youth stealing maidenheads left and right. We also don't now enough about Ashara to convince me that she'd give in. Barbery Dustin was scheming and a bit wild. From what we know of Ashara, she doesn't fit the same mold.

If we start talking about social habits, any lord could have seduced any lady. For all we know, Jon Arryn was banging half the Vale between those dead wives. Robert had to learn it somewhere, right? Gerris Drinkwater is a flirt; does that mean he has a legion of bastards back in Dorne? No, because we have no evidence of it. Arrogance and narcicissm does not equal betraying family.

I'm more inclined to believe Ned *did* impregnate Ashara based on his reaction to Catelynn mentioning her way back in "A Game of Thrones." We're led to believe he was so curt because of Jon's paternity, but it could have just easily been his wife picking at an open wound caused by the death of a girl he loved, a girl whose suicide was his fault. But, it does stand to the question: why is Selmy the only person to mention the stillborn daughter? Does he know as a creepy, unrequited lover, or as a member of the King's Guard? Or neither. How does he know when no one else has ever, in any of the various mentions of Ashara, mentioned that detail?

I'm more curious about the sense of duty that shaped the lives of these characters and especially Rickard Stark's master plan, as it clearly put a monkeywrench in the lives of both his sons and their two women.

[Myrish swan]

I'm more inclined to believe Ned *did* impregnate Ashara based on his reaction to Catelynn mentioning her way back in "A Game of Thrones." We're led to believe he was so curt because of Jon's paternity, but it could have just easily been his wife picking at an open wound caused by the death of a girl he loved, a girl whose suicide was his fault.

But then why, 30 pages or so later, does Ned have an emotional outburst when Robert jibes him about his "bastard's mother," and declare that he "dishonored CATELYN before gods and men"? If he had banged Ashara at the Harrenhal tourney, that would not count as betraying Cat. IMO, his words here are an indication that he betrayed Cat somehow... by sleeping with Ashara after he had married Cat. Which would mean that he may well have slept with her before he got Lyanna from the tower of joy (remember, we still don't know how Ned knew where the hell to look for Lyanna; Rhaegar was dead, and few others were privy to their location. Yet, Ashara was part of the inner circle, and Arthur Dayne was her brother. So she may well have been one of the few people who could have told Ned where to look.) or afterwards, when he returned Arthur's sword to Starfall.

I.M.O., Ned did wholeheartedly believe that Ashara's suicide was all his own fault. As I mentioned earlier, i have a theory that Ned went to Ashara shortly after the sack of Kings Landing, and asked her for Lyanna's location. He then confessed the undying love for her he concieved at Harrenhal. The two sleep together. Afterwards, Ned claims that, though he loves Ashara, he has duty to go back to his wife. Ashara agrees, and tell them where Lyanna is hidden.

Yet, when Ned meets Arthur Dayne, he ends up having to fight the guy to get to his sister, which he never anticipated having to do. He ends up killing Ashara's brother. When Ned meets Lyanna, he promises her on her deathbed that he'll raise her bastard as his own. Thus, when Ned goes back to Asahra at Starfall, he is forced to tell her that Jon Snow is his bastard, and Wylla the wetnurse has been his mistress all along. Oh, and oh yeah, he also killed her brother.

IMO, it must have seemed to Ned that Ashara believed that she'd been pumped and dumped by both Brandon and Ned, and that she was responsible for the death of her own brother. As a result, Ned believes, Ashara killed herself, and it's all his fault. However, IMO, Ashara is actually not dead.

[Dio Forel]

I.M.O., Ned did wholeheartedly believe that Ashara's suicide was all his own fault. As I mentioned earlier, i have a theory that Ned went to Ashara shortly after the sack of Kings Landing, and asked her for Lyanna's location. He then confessed the undying love for her he concieved at Harrenhal. The two sleep together. Afterwards, Ned claims that, though he loves Ashara, he has duty to go back to his wife. Ashara agrees, and tell them where Lyanna is hidden.

I just find it hard to believe that Ned, the man of honor that he is so diligently looking for his sister, would take this time of chaos and fear for his sister to go to Ashara and say... [cue overly romantic music] Ashara I have loved you since Harrenhal.. when I was the Shy Wolf wanting to dance... I am a man of honor and heart... ok so now that I got THAT out of the way... [overly romantic music comes to an abrupt halt] Please we are so scared where is my sister?

[Myrish swan]

I just find it hard to believe that Ned, the man of honor that he is so diligently looking for his sister, would take this time of chaos and fear for his sister to say... [cue overly romantic music] Ashara I have loved you since Harrenhal.. when I was the Shy Wolf wanting to dance... I am a man of honor and heart... ok so now that I got THAT out of the way... [overly romantic music comes to an abrupt halt] Please we are so scared where is my sister?

LOL. And you can't forget that he pauses in between "I have loved you since Harrenhal" and "where is my sister" to SEX ASHARA UP!!! Just like his freaky brother did before him. :smileysex:

Seriously, I think it would be possible for Ned and Ashara, after exchanging the necessary information, to somehow get caught up in the great emotional trauma they've been experiencing lately, and confide in each other somehow. Perhaps, in trying to comfort each other, a sexual encounter resulted. Just a thought.

[Dio Forel]

LOL. And you can't forget that he pauses in between "I have loved you since Harrenhal" and "where is my sister" to SEX ASHARA UP!!! Just like his freaky brother did before him. :smileysex:

Seriously, I think it would be possible for Ned and Ashara, after exchanging the necessary information, to somehow get caught up in the great emotional trauma they've been experiencing lately, and confide in each other somehow. Perhaps, in trying to comfort each other, a sexual encounter resulted. Just a thought.

Well.. it is "medieval-ish" times and all... I guess there would be time in between those pauses for some sexin' from the Wolf. We might need to cue some different music for that though ;-) (Bow chicka wow wowwwww)...

If we start throwing in ideas like this, we may lose the show's future seasons to Cinemax, Game of Beds vs Game of Thrones... You lay with a Stark... or You Die. Well in this theory... you die anyway lol

[tipopellet]

Isn't it possible that Ned was a teenager so overcome with love and lust that he broke his own moral code to sleep with Ashara?

I think it's absolutely impossible. He is on the quest of avenging his dishonored sister! Turning the woman you LOVE into a camp follower isn't something you do when "overcomed by love". It's the most awful thing to do to highborn lady. There would be absolutely no way back for her after that. The more he loved her the less inclined he would be to bang her in those cirumstances.

Besides, there is no way it could have been kept secret among his bannermen. Robert wouldn't forget such a scandal and would have teased Ned with this instead of trying to remeber what's-her-name-oh-yeah-Wylla.

P.S. If Ned was ever overcomed by love it had to be at Harrenhaal when he was a teenager, not married, not bethroned, the second son, not yet scarred by deaths of his father and brother, not shamed by what happened to his sister and so on.

[ishmael]

You want to say she traveled all alone on horse to become Ned's camp follower until she got pregnant and had to travel back to Starfall? And already married Ned was OK with this?

That seems rather wild development.

That was GRRM's response to a question about where was Ashara during the war and would it have even been possible for her and Ned to get together during the war. You can take whatever you want from his response to that question, but it certainly leaves the possibility open that they could have been together.

[ishmael]

I think it's absolutely impossible. He is on the quest of avenging his dishonored sister! Turning the woman you LOVE into a camp follower isn't something you do when "overcomed by love". It's the most awful thing to do to highborn lady. There would be absolutely no way back for her after that. The more he loved her the less inclined he would be to bang her in those cirumstances.

Besides, there is no way it could have been kept secret among his bannermen. Robert wouldn't forget such a scandal and would have teased Ned with this instead of trying to remeber what's-her-name-oh-yeah-Wylla.

P.S. If Ned was ever overcomed by love it had to be at Harrenhaal when he was a teenager, not married, not bethroned, the second son, not yet scarred by deaths of his father and brother, not shamed by what happened to his sister and so on.

You are the one turning her into a camp follower. Nobody else has said this or implied this. Possibly, she showed up in Ned's camp. But a woman who shows up to see the man she loves is signifcantly different than a camp follower. Robert's bannermen would not have know that she did come to Ned, so Robert would not have know anyone came to Ned. It was Ned's men who returned to Winterfell while Ned rode to the TOJ and then to Starfall that were whispering about Ned and Ashara after Ned returned to Winterfell. Ignore the thoughts that the TOJ, Starfall, or Harrenhal have anything to do with these men as very few of them were present at any of the three sites. Their only frame of reference is what they saw during the war.

[ishmael]

The big issue with the theory of B+A is that because Brandon slept with Lady Dustin/Ryswell, he suddenly becomes a great big horndog that goes around bedding every noble daughter he comes across. This is in no way implied or stated in the books. Lady Dustin/Ryswell indicates that her and Brandon had more than a one time fling. She gives the impression that it was a mutual relationship. This is supported by her indication that their relationship ended once he was betrothed to Cat. If he was a man who did not hold the betrothal in some sort of reguard, then he could have very easily continued the affair with Dustin. But, he didn't. He ended it. This does not give the impression of a man who then cock blocked his brother so he could have the woman that his bother was interested in or loved. This theory places Brandon on par with Robert in his pursuit of the next woman to sleep with. If he was such a conqueror or women, where are all of the bastards he must have fathered? He may get lucky a few times and not gotten anyone pregnant, but other times he would not have been so lucky.

Other than the fact that Brandon was at Harrenhal, which does give him some odds of sleeping with Ashara, there really isn't anything to suggest that he had any interaction with her other than to ask her to dance with Ned or really had any interest in her. It is possible that she wasn't his type.