[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon 8

[indiesque]

I think that a person can die by any means beyond the wall, but to become a wight, an Other has to reanimate the body.

So if you a man kills another man beyond the wall, they need to dispose of the body so an Other can't come along and reanimate it.

That's my take anyway

[Raistlan]

The reason I ask is the three rangers whose heads they find on spikes had no eyes, presumably removed by the Weeper(an at large wildling) with no interaction known with an Other/Wight.

Is Jon expecting them to animate as wights so that he can try and communicate with them? If so, it might depend on how they died.

The corpses in the ice cells are the two dead wildlings they found at the weirwood with the giant and other wildlings, not the dead ranger heads.

[Goblonaut]

Only thing I was thinking about in this chapter, was that who the heck burned hard home? I think there was some mention of cannibalism or something, which got me thinking that it might have been the Skagosi. But could be common pirates, they it's unlikely that they would burn the whole town to the ground.

[Bale Dayne]

Yes, it's not absolutely sure. Apparently that's how it works, and it was the general consensus (among readers), but that doesn't make it 100% certain. Jon's experiment will show beyond doubt if Others are a requirement for rising Wights or not.

Well didn't two dead guys on the south side of the Wall rise- sans Others- and attack Lord Mormont in GoT? I think that clears up any theory that an Other is needed to make a wight rise, doesn't it?

[PetrusOctavianus]

Has there been even one mention of Pyp or Grenn so far in this book? Almost like GRRM wants their sudden appearance to be jarring/surprise us? So far we have no idea what they think of Jon's decision making. Got a bad feeling...

As part of Jon's "killing the boy" he sent his four closest friends - Pyp, Grenn, Toad and Halder - to The Shadow Tower and Eastwatch. IIRC Pyp and Green went to Eastwatch and the other two to the Shadow Tower. However I was disappointed that we never saw their departure "live" or in flashbacks.

[sarcasticbstrd]

Well didn't two dead guys on the south side of the Wall rise- sans Others- and attack Lord Mormont in GoT? I think that clears up any theory that an Other is needed to make a wight rise, doesn't it?

I just thought that the Others had killed these rangers, so they rose as Wights.

[BeanCounter]

Or you could say that, whatever made those "first" two dead men into wights, they made their way down to the Wall by traveling at night when they were animated. They reach the Wall, the sun comes up and they de-animate, the NW takes them inside, the sun goes down and they rise again.

[Tammy]

I'm finding that I have to have some suspension of disbelief when reading these Jon chapters. We have been told many times in the past how the Night's Watch is made of rapers, thieves, the scum of Westeros, disgraced knights and lordlings far down the line of succession with no other choice of advancement in their own worlds. We know how men come to the watch often very late in their lives, with long lives before them. And how people from all houses come together, often in time of war, and put their emnities aside, whether Stark or Lannister, or Tully or Frey. Joining the watch we are told washes away your past life.

The Watch is also an order that has stood on the north for thousands of years, and more than most understands what lies north of the wall, and the wildlings. We are told by Mance that there is more trade between the Watch and wildlings than he thinks. The half-hand seemed to have a respect for the wildlings, and told Jon that only fools truly hate them. And at this very moment the Watch is made of men, some of whom have actually seen undead jombies and bears attack them.

My problem is, I'm not buying that the officers of the watch would have such a blind, one-sided hatred of the wildlings like what we see here, or that it should bother them so much even after a wildling says the words. There are many cases of watchmen going to the wildlings, but we are supposed to think that the much more logical opposite, wildlings joining the wall, is somehow unheard of - while the scum of society and war enemies coming together and being bound as brothers is found. In a more realistic world, the Watch and the wildlings would have started trading and building diplomatic relations and turning Eastwatch into some huge trading city millenia ago. At the least seasoned watchmen would have more liking to the wildlings than to the green boys, rapists and whores that come to them. The North of the wall is as large as many real world countries, I'm sure the vast majority of the people living there aren't raiding and killing watchmen for most of their time, and I can't see why such a hatred is supposed to have persisted through millenia. Its not even as if there's some historical hatred for the personal lives of many of the watchmen, most of them come to the Wall with no connection to the North or its history.

I agree with this to a certain extent. I can't understand their claim that they can't bring in the wildlings because they're monsters and rapists seeing as how many of them are in the NW from the seven kingdoms. Especially where we have the likes of Ramsay Bolton running around freely. :tantrum:

But I can see their prejudice because they've been raised to believe the wildlings are barely even men. Jon gave them sound reasoning, but sound reasoning often doesn't hold any water.

I just keep on seeing so much of Dany and Jon in each other and their intentions, compassion and methods of ruling.

[Morky_Pep]

In the prologue, the woman who Sixskins is with transforms into a wight after being slain by a wight. Also, those dead wildings at the weirwood grove did not animate. Seing as how the women in the prologue came back right away would suggest that these wildings will not re animate. It was also night during the prologue and in the weirwood grove so that diminishes the idea of daylight and night having something to do with it.

Personally i beleive that it is more of a virus. You must be slain by either a wight or other to change.

Also back in AGOT when they find the wights, the hands are already black and IIRC their eyes were blue. I beleive that they were playing dead until at night. This would mean that they have some form of intelligence; or maybe someone or something is controlling them. This is evident because they were specifically going after Mormont.

[DanyStark]

Okay...I am also still confused. Are wights and Others the same or different?

A wight something that was transformed from human to blue eyed horror and an Other has always been that way? I need help..

[Wise Westerosi]

Okay...I am also still confused. Are wights and Others the same or different?

A wight something that was transformed from human to blue eyed horror and an Other has always been that way? I need help..

Yes more or less. The Others are a sentient race who make the wights, which are essentially re-animated zombies with some memory from previous life.

[patdzon]

Where did they get the Dragonglass?

[A.dor]

I noticed that the description of Val was all in grey like the Mel's vision -- the horse was a shaggy grey and the pelt she was wearing was well salted with grey (p.515)...maybe just a coincidence or could she be the woman in her vision returning to the wall?

[Sarella_Sand]

Where did they get the Dragonglass?

Jon found a stash of obsidian daggers, spearheads and arrowheads in 'Clash of Kings' remember (CoK Jon 4)? Well, actually Ghost found it and made Jon follow him. It was while they were still at the Fist.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's all the dragonglass they have at the moment... They definitely need more dragonglass and dragonsteel if they want to stand any chance at all against the Others.

[Jennelyn]

So John assumes that all corpses are subject to becoming wights and hence becoming their enemy. The corpses in the ice cells under guard are likely his way of studying this to confirm his suspicions. In the mean time he means to do something about all those wildings going to their deaths at Hardhome.

John really has remarkable foresight. He does not have prejudices that get in the way of reality and what is best for the NW and the realm. He really see's the bigger picture. Now if only his brothers could see that they picked exactly the right man for the job rather than second guess all of his decisions.

I was glad that Gilly's babe was mentioned finally. Interesting that Val could give a shit less about him. It says a lot about the Wildlings and their autonomous ways. They look out for number one. I wonder if she will return.

I think it's really cool that Jon talks to the giant every day.

[Fryie]

My problem is, I'm not buying that the officers of the watch would have such a blind, one-sided hatred of the wildlings like what we see here, or that it should bother them so much even after a wildling says the words. There are many cases of watchmen going to the wildlings, but we are supposed to think that the much more logical opposite, wildlings joining the wall, is somehow unheard of - while the scum of society and war enemies coming together and being bound as brothers is found. In a more realistic world, the Watch and the wildlings would have started trading and building diplomatic relations and turning Eastwatch into some huge trading city millenia ago. At the least seasoned watchmen would have more liking to the wildlings than to the green boys, rapists and whores that come to them. The North of the wall is as large as many real world countries, I'm sure the vast majority of the people living there aren't raiding and killing watchmen for most of their time, and I can't see why such a hatred is supposed to have persisted through millenia. Its not even as if there's some historical hatred for the personal lives of many of the watchmen, most of them come to the Wall with no connection to the North or its history.

The thing is, many of these seasoned rangers died. And that at the hands of wildlings. Try explaining to an oaf such as Bowen Marsh that they're not the enemy - he's just a steward after all, he hasn't been out there and seen the wildlings and talked to them and shared their tents and fires. Instead he got severely wounded while fighting against them.

[Carya]

I noticed that the description of Val was all in grey like the Mel's vision -- the horse was a shaggy grey and the pelt she was wearing was well salted with grey (p.515)...maybe just a coincidence or could she be the woman in her vision returning to the wall?

I just registered for the forum after lurking for months to respond to this. This is exactly what I thought when reading this passage. I can't believe that there was only one post about it in this thread. Anyone else think Val is the girl in gray returning to the Wall on a dying horse?

[drteeth72]

I'm new to these boards and have thoroughly enjoyed the books up to this point.I am just curious, where did this R+L=J theory start?

[Crown]

I'm new to these boards and have thoroughly enjoyed the books up to this point.I am just curious, where did this R+L=J theory start?

As far as I know it has been around since AGOT was released, due to the scenes in the Tower of Joy and the 'Promise me, Ned, promise me' lines.

On topic: the giant is awesome! I hope they add giants to the HBO series.

[Noelle Snow]

I generally think the reason the corpses don't reanimate is because the magic in the Wall isn't allowing them to.