[ADWD SPOILERS] Cersei 2

[gutripper]

Did I miss something or how is everyone sure it was Hot Pie? Is his trademark being the only one selling meat pies in Westeros? I can see the possibility but don't really know what he would be doing there now, given where we saw him last.

I have a theory that Robert Strong will fight Loras Tyrell, to sort out the Cersei vs Margaery dispute.... Sort of a one word vs another's resolved with a battle... :)

[Laohu]

Anyone think Qyburn may have lopped off Tywins head and stiched it on to Gregor's body, maybe why he specifically lifted her off the ground?

Hmm.. Well, I think as soon as she found out, Cersei, in turn, would probably lop off Qyburn's head for desecrating her father's body.

This chapter has been able to ellicit quite a broad range of emotions from readers. I still do not know how I feel after reading Cersei's punishment. I absolutely loathe this woman mainly because of her treatment of Jamie, which is probably the least of her crimes ironically enough. I think this was about as uncomfortable a situation of penance as you can put forth on paper; nevertheless, I still am not sure if she has received the right punishment that should be in store for her (if there is such a thing).

Was I sympathetic to her 'Walk of Shame'? Of course, I was. Do I feel that she should have gotten this punishment and more? I am not so sure about that. I guess I would have been perfectly content with seeing her final moment in life be Jamie spurning her in person during her time of need at a trial or execution. Apparently, GRRM is not ready to give me that just yet.

[Moon Child]

Her last sentence is evidence enough that she will NOT change. I felt bad for what happened to Reek and I despised Theon for what he'd done before but Theon changed, suffered much more and seems more aware now somehow, of himself and everyone else. I hope he doesn't go all stupid on us again. As for Cersei... After this, she'll only get more blood-thirsty and vengeful.

And I'm guessing UnGregor won't ever need speak, since there will always be enemies to paranoid Cersei.

As far as the naked walk of shame goes, it served nothing-she won't ever change and it didn't seem punishment enough. But, knowing what awaits her if her prophecy comes true... she'll get served alright.

Would be awesome if the Hound is going to be the Faith's champion! :eek:

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to go HOT PIE! :laugh:

Um, it's not the real Hot Pie in KL, it's just that the guy selling pies and shouting reminded me (and others that posted about this) of Hot Pie.

And I almost forgot to mention that if I ever found myself in Westeros I think I would rather take my chances on Skagos than in Kings Landing... what a cesspool.

[protar]

Why does everyone seem to think that Sandor will be championing against Ungregor? Cersei's arc isn't done yet, so it's doubtful Ser Gregor will lose, so if it is Sandor it will result in him being revealed as alive only to get killed. I think the Faith's champion will be Lancel or that random knight who escorted Cersei during her walk of shame. Then in TWOW Cersei will send Ungregor to Winterfell to stop Sansa retrieving her birthright. That's when Sandor v Gregor is gonna go down.

[kephv]

Why does everyone seem to think that Sandor will be championing against Ungregor? Cersei's arc isn't done yet, so it's doubtful Ser Gregor will lose, so if it is Sandor it will result in him being revealed as alive only to get killed.

Agreed. Most likely it'll be Theodan, or if he's feeling holy enough, Lancel who faces Ser Robert and get's cut to pieces.

[Ser Leo Targaryen]

Oh! How I love ancient justice!

I really felt vindicated. And ready to all the new treacheries she's gonna commit now! :D

[Crown]

I felt sorry for Cersei, wait what? Yeah, I felt sorry for her. This is the beginning of her end, and her end will meet the prophecy, fulfilled by The Hound. I'm sure of it.

EDIT: To be honest, I don't believe Gregor died at all, Qyburn kept him alive, somehow, and made him stronger.

[miztique]

I'm so glad to have these forums to refer to when I'm done reading a chapter. This is the 2nd time that I didn't understand what happened at the end of a chapter ... LOL! First time, I couldn't figure out how Arya killed her mark and then after this chapter, I didn't know who Cersei's Champion might be! :blushing: Thanks, everyone, for the insights!!!

I, too, started to feel a TINY bit sorry for Cersei during her walk of shame, but I think it was clear that she didn't have a true change of heart. And I love the theory that the Hound wlll fulfill the prophecy! So awesome!

[Shaggy Rickon]

Wow that would be soooooo awesome! I hope you're right.

If Ser Robert Strong is destroyed by Sandor, his "little brother", Cersei will be proven guilty and executed. That could be how the "Valonqar" prophecy will be fulfilled...

I think the Valonqar prophecy is about Jaime not Tyrion. Cercei is too stupid to comprehend it. She puts too much faith in Jaime and rejects him after betraying him with what he views as lesser men. I can see Jaime strangling her with his golden hand if he gets to live past briene and uncat. What leads Jaime to it is yet to be seen. I for one can't wait.

For those who think this walk of shame was aggressive, I mean c'mon....... Cercei is evil and vain and repulsive. She is reaping what she sowed. Kill her humiliate her whatever. She made joffrey into a monster and she can't even see what she had done.

[Nymeria_Snow]

Hear hear! Anyone else remember Bran's first vision before even waking up from his fall? He saw three armored figures, the first two of which were obviously Jaime and Sandor from their descriptions. But the third was "big as a mountain", armored in stone, and when he raised his visor there was no face inside.

:bowdown: you are such a hero for reminding me of that prophecy. Of course!

[robbie avalon]

Anybody else notice that Cersei fell 3 times? A humiliating walk with a character that falls 3 times is much too significant to mean nothing. It's been a few years since I did the stations of the cross during lent, but the parallel here was like a hammer. Where's Martin going with this? If this was discussed on another thread, please direct me. Search was no help.

i noticed that as well. when she fell the first time a red flag went up, and the third confirmed it to me. also the fact that she was walking as a sort of atonement for her sins.

[robbie avalon]

okay so last time Ser Gregor fought i was rooting for the sand snake of course.. and HE LOST. if Gregor fights again im gonna be rooting against him.. again.. and if he wins.. again.. im probably gonna punch a wall LOL :bang:

[Free Man]

HOT PIE!

Seriously, why was there so much emphasis on Hot pie?

It would have been a nice touch if the crowds got a touch of their queen, though...

Rearding Qyuburns creature, it is most likely Gregors body, but I am not sure whos head it caries (might be a combined one)...

I had this idea.. what if Qyuburn was able to save Gregor... then by operations extracting his head bones one by one, replacing them with combined bones from the people he took down the cells? The head sent to Dorne had no skin...

It could still be ser Gregor, his tongue removed so no one notices

[Kellyline]

I loved this chapter. I feel like she got what was coming to her. But also that it wasn't enough. I think the only punishment I would be okay with is life in a dungeon. And I wouldn't mind a few POVs to check up on her! haha

[SirFrancisCromarty]

A Gregor/ Sandor showdown has been foreshadowed since book 1. It seems that Ser Robert Strong is most definitely Gregor. I believe Sandor has repented his sins and was the grave digger passed by Brienne. He seems to have some affiliation with the Faith.

I don't think we need to read too much further into this.

[Myrcella]

Agreed.

Anyone else notice the part where she talks about Jaime not stupidly grabbing the lion's tail when they were kids? Once again she thinks this means she should have been the man because she would be so much of a better leader. Really? How dumb is she? Because she was stupid enough to grab a lion by the tail when they were kids she is the bold and fearless leader everyone needs? The story also seems out of character for Jaime who almost seeks death and opportunity to prove he is not afraid of anything.

Remember, Jaime changed drastically after getting his hand chopped off and seeing her flaws when he returned to King's Landing.

[Anth]

Ugh. Robert Stone. Great.

If she is planning on continuing her feud with Margaery Tyrell, she's going to need to die asap. I know there are several options to fulfill the "Younger Queen" prophecy but I really am rooting for it to be Margaery [or Sansa just to really stick it to Cersei.]

[Hodors Shlong]

Where is all of this sympathy for Cersei coming from? She sent innocent women down to the dungeon for Qyburn to basically torture and dissect (while they were still alive). She and her little hellspawn Joffrey cackled like hyena's after the Red Wedding. She's ordered the deaths of Roberts mistresses and their children. She is the most hideous concoction of arrogance, stupidity and hypocricy ever. Pretty much all of the woes of the realm come back to her, whether it be starting the War of the Five Kings, right through to spitting in the face of the Iron Bank. Her walk of shame doesn't even begin to repay all of the damage and tragedy she's caused, but at least it's a start.

:agree: :bowdown:

Given the violent nature with which a lot of other characters meet their demise in this series, coupled with its depection of sexuality in general, I don't really understand how Cersei's walk of shame is a surprise. Its a brutal scene to picture in ones head, and can definitely give people the willies, but I don't pity her in the least. It fits right in with the setting and as Valkyrist stated, Cersei is a humngous piece of shit from every angle. Her love for her kids is potentially her only redeeming quality, but given her nature and how she is a lying, manipulative, hateful bitch, I don't even know if I truly buy that. Even if it is genuine, its still no excuse for her tearing apart the realm. Almost every major problem or conflict we're reading about in the books can be traced back to Cersei on some level.

And the thing that really makes me not sympathize with her at all is that she hasn't changed at all. Shes learned nothing throughout this whole ordeal. Her inner monologue throughout the entirety of her imprisonment and walk of shame still reeked of the familiar arrogance, loathing, deciet, and igorance we're used to from her. Sure she cried a little bit at the end, and it was cool to see her imagine the likes of Ned and others shes had killed taunting her, but in the end when they showed her Un-Gregor (or whoever that hulking mass is), all she thought of was how shes going to win her freedom. Same old selfish Cersei. :bang: I feel like her outlook on the whole walk of shame is that it was just a hurdle she had to clear; as if the citizens of kings landing were a reved up home crowd at a sporting event and that she, the away team, had to simply weather the storm for the first couple of plays until everything gets back to normal.

Compare her to the other redemption stories like Jaime and Theon/Reek. Jaimie shared a lot of the same negative traits as Cersei, but between losing his sword hand and his journey with Brienne, he realized just how much of a fool he was. His transformation is evident internally and in his own actions. Hes changed the kind of knight/man he is and is even trying to atone for what hes done. Hes truly a man changed. And eventhough Theon is an ass, I actually felt sympathy for him as Reek, because when you were reading, you were inside the mind of a tortured soul. Reek/Theon truly lamented the fact that hes a turncloak and regreted the things he did. Didnt make them right, but it still allowed some room for sympathy. You actually get the sense that eventhough hes returned to being Theon, hes not the selfish, bumbling turncloak of old. But I feel like they could prove Cersei guilty of every crime shes ever commited, in front of all the realm, and she'd be the same. They could lop off all her fingers and toes, knock out her teeth, and cut off her teats and she'd still be saying, "I'm a lioness of Casterly Rock and Queen of the Seven Kingdoms!!! How dare you!?!!"

[Low Valyrian]

Well, after that walk Cersei is done, imo- all of KL got themselves a good long 'look behind the curtains', so to speak- stripped of her vanities and shown to be just a mere mortal like her everyone else.

Stack that ontop of her confessions- she's done. All the 'lesser people' mocking her stretch marks, her sagging- I think that is WAY worse than death for a person of vanity, and a person of vanity who held the all the power in the land while her son grew into it...reduced to a laughing stock? How can she possibly show her face in KL again? Kevan had the right of it- My guess is she'll *still* try to reclaim her power, will get laughs and snickers behind her back at every turn and make even more a joke of herself, if possible.

The walk was fitting imo, after all the heinous, nefarious, straight up dastardly things she's done through the book, all of without a second thought to any of her actions but herself- I relished every page of that chapter.

As for Robert Strong, thats almost a no brainer that it's Gregor in the armor...I think. He's said to be 8ft and Gregor I thought was only 7...I have no idea what's under the helm, however- that will be very interesting to discover.

[Bad Hound!]

This punishment is not satisfactory at all. It serves nothing. It only satisfies the desire for revenge at its basest. But true justice?

The fact that many people on this forum are not comfortable with the punishment (rather than feeling sorry for Cersei, this is what it's really about), because it doesn't fit the true crime.

Cersei's true crimes are:

- letting her fucked-up son stay... well, fucked-up. Not seeing that he is sick, cruel, she lets Joffrey get away with everything. That is wrong.

- giving people away to Qyburn for his torturous experiments; torturing the singer

- bullying a whole lot of female people at court, including Sansa

- there are more. But for this, she would have deserved the chop; or if there was a female equivalent of sending people to the Wall, she'd deserve that. Maybe a whole life in the Quiet Isle? Something like that.

But what she has been subjected to is wrong because it is so sexist. I don't usually side in with the feminists, but this time, we should: the crimes she is accused of are female-only crimes. A man committing the same crimes would get away with them. She has essentially only been punished for sleeping around. Not for having sex to suit her own purposes. Just for having sex with someone not her husband. That's all.

And the punishment exploits her female vulnerabilities.

I think in the 21st century, we are all attached to the idea of the punishment fitting the crime. And the discomfort here is that it doesn't.

To top it all off, once the walk is finished and Cersei is safe, she is free to go back to her old self and spread more nonsense over the world. Having only suffered emotional scars, she has not been punished in the way that other such as Theon (complete mutilation and torture), or even Davos (fingers cut off) or Jorah Mormont (sent into exile) have been. She got off lightly.