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[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon 13


Xray the Enforcer

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Jon is definitely not gone.

Now it's just a matter of finding out whether he will come back warging on someone, or become unJon, or just be healed.

Out of these, I sincerely prefer that he is just healed by Melissandre, we've had enough of warging, unPeople, and reborns.

Though, this is an extremely disappointing end for Jon's arc.

Not because Jon seems to have died, as I said, I think there are no reasons for us to think so.

It's disappointing because it's cheap. I honestly expected more, way more, from GRRM.

This!

I would rather have him dead than some kinda zombie or even surprisingly not dead...

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More grist for the Jon is dead and will be resurrected mill. My post from the thread for the previous Jon chapter:

And why hasn't anyone commented on the raven saying his name? More so, why hasn't anyone comented on the Raven saying "King" "Snow, Jon Snow". Bran or Bloodraven warging the raven? I hope so.

Actually, it said "Corn" and "King" and "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow".

The myth of the Corn King.

Most narratives operate according to the basic structure whereby an initial state of well-being or at least equilibrium is upset and then, with difficulty, restored. So it is no surprise when we see this plot-skeleton in The Lion King. But the film has strong resonances of a more specific myth, that of the Corn King, brought to our attention a century ago by Sir James Frazer in his monumental work The Golden Bough. Deep in the race, Frazer explained, is the belief that the king carries within himself the life and fertility of the land he rules. As such he is a living god. He may be called upon to give his life in a time of famine so that his blood may fertilize the fields anew. (Other movies that make good use of this myth are The Wicker Man and Eye of the Devil.)

The Corn King myth underlies the practices of various primitive peoples and appears in mythology under the names of Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Baal, Tammuz, and Bran the Blessed. The wounding and healing (or the death and resurrection) of the god/king represents (and is believed actually to facilitate) the renewal of vegetation in the Spring after the death of plants in the winter.

I doubt we'll see Jon back in "human form" till the last book.

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Meh. I doubt Jon is dead - reminds me too much of these 'looks like deaths but no confirmations' that GRRM writes (brianne, Ayra's blindness). But I certainly have lost interest in the series. First 2/3 of ADWD was back to pre-AFFC days IMO. But when it caught up with the AFFC timeline, it just became... meh.

I hate the fact that GRRM now leaves us on urgent cliffhangers now. I find that cheap. In AGOT, Ned was killed, it was confirmed that Ned was killed, and we got a taste of the consequences of Ned's death. That gave me enough closure to last me until the next book and made me fall in love with the series. Now, we get stuff like this, which I just find, well, cheap, esp given the fact that GRRM is now asking us to wait 3 years to find out what really happened. It's not good writing, it's not a case of GRRM pissing off a reader with the crazy stuff he's prepared to do with the characters and people not being able to handle it... it's just... cheap.

And overall, the almost sadistic victimising of the one 'good' family (Starks), the cheap cliffhangers that have crept into the series (eg. Jon), the way that nowadays death does not necessarily mean death, what with resurrections and sorcery, compared to how previously dead MEANT dead, the endless baby-switching and 'well, this guy may LOOK AND SOUND like this other guy but in fact... it was all magic' (Mance), etc...

TBH, I'm moving on to better writers. Gonna try Stephen Erikkson, I think.

I'll still read the Dunk & Egg stories though, as I find those much better written. 'Epic' shouldn't mean 'don't tell your readers if your main characters are dead for three years' - but that's how GRRM is playing it these days, which is a real shame.

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Didn't Mel in her chapter say something like she gives a piece of herself to do spells and magic? To resurrect Jon (or heal him, if he's not dead) would take a lot of "giving". Combining that and something about someone had to be dead so Cat could be revived (correct me if I'm wrong), my theory is that Mel would have to die herself in order for Jon to live. Maybe she knew that already, so that's why she was trying to help Jon not get stabbed.

Even if my theory is totally wrong, I think she'll revive him, and while doing so, see that Jon is actually the AA and not Stannis. At least I hope so! :)

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Didn't Mel in her chapter say something like she gives a piece of herself to do spells and magic? To resurrect Jon (or heal him, if he's not dead) would take a lot of "giving". Combining that and something about someone had to be dead so Cat could be revived (correct me if I'm wrong), my theory is that Mel would have to die herself in order for Jon to live. Maybe she knew that already, so that's why she was trying to help Jon not get stabbed.

Even if my theory is totally wrong, I think she'll revive him, and while doing so, see that Jon is actually the AA and not Stannis. At least I hope so! :)

You are right on the account of giving a piece of herself since Thoros who used to be a huge fatass had become a slim dude from all the healing and resurrection he had done for Beric. OTOH Beric had been resurrected like six times and the last time we see it done its after he receives a mortal wound from Sandor so I do not think someone gotta be dead for that to work.

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You are right on the account of giving a piece of herself since Thoros who used to be a huge fatass had become a slim dude from all the healing and resurrection he had done for Beric. OTOH Beric had been resurrected like six times and the last time we see it done its after he receives a mortal wound from Sandor so I do not think someone gotta be dead for that to work.

thanks, I knew it was something like that. Still I hope Mel will now see that Stannis is not the one.

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I hate the fact that GRRM now leaves us on urgent cliffhangers now. I find that cheap. In AGOT, Ned was killed, it was confirmed that Ned was killed, and we got a taste of the consequences of Ned's death. That gave me enough closure to last me until the next book and made me fall in love with the series. Now, we get stuff like this, which I just find, well, cheap, esp given the fact that GRRM is now asking us to wait 3 years to find out what really happened. It's not good writing, it's not a case of GRRM pissing off a reader with the crazy stuff he's prepared to do with the characters and people not being able to handle it... it's just... cheap.

That's exactly how I felt.

AGOT doesn't end with Joffrey asking Payne for Ned's head.

It also doesn't end before Daenerys comes out of her pyre.

ACOK doesn't end before we know that Tyrion's alive after the Battle of the Blackwater.

These cliffhangers are very cheap tricks that definitely don't go with the style GRRM used in the first books.

I'd also say that the pace has changed a lot.

I have the impression that if today's GRRM had written AGOT we'd have seen at least two chapters of Cat travelling to King's Landing.

It's really a pity.

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When I started reading this chapter, I was doing my best impression of a Stark child:

My direwolf is really, really aggitated and I've been told that that means that I am in danger. Bad direwolf! I'm going to lock you up away from me until I die, I mean, until you stop uncharacteristically freaking out like my life is in danger.

Now that I finished; thinking about Mel repeatedly telling Jon to keep Ghost close: maybe she knew he would need to shift into Ghost when his body died, as opposed to the more straightforward reason of having his direwolf nearby to defend him.

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When I started reading this chapter, I was doing my best impression of a Stark child:

Now that I finished; thinking about Mel repeatedly telling Jon to keep Ghost close: maybe she knew he would need to shift into Ghost when his body died, as opposed to the more straightforward reason of having his direwolf nearby to defend him.

He'd gain nothing from shifting into Ghost. Wargs don't live forever, just slowly dissolve
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I'm really more concerned about the welfare of my favorite character than whether or not GRRM overuses a certain plot device. I can swallow one more false-death as long as Jon is okay. I believe he did warg into Ghost, that Mel with heal his body but he won't be walking dead ala BD, and that the wildlings jumped to his defense, albeit a bit late; this explains why he didn't feel the fourth dagger.

Something else I noticed: he couldn't grab Longclaw, and at this point had only been grazed by Wick...I'm wondering why he felt all clumsy all of a sudden. Maybe Mel did something? I also agree with the notion that Mel is Ygritte/Y was Mel.

Jon's opening chapter was wargish, so I only think it makes sense that he gave in to the urge when his life depended on it. I realize there are rules with warg's living/dieing, but I believe this is where Mel comes in.

I think there was some sketchy writing in this chapter, though. Jon is one of the least impulsive characters in the books, imo. Bolton's letter is obviously garbage, yet Jon took the cheese. The old Jon wouldn't have reacted in such a fashion, at least not right away. Also, he wouldn't have been so naive as to leave Ghost behind/disregard Mel. She hasn't been perfect with her visions, but she's been close enough where the Jon we all know would have given her advice some credence.

Overall, I did think leaving it like this was pure cheese by GRRM. Give us one more chapter where Jon is healing/regrouping so we can get pumped for the battle with The Others or the assault on Ramsay.

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Something else I noticed: he couldn't grab Longclaw, and at this point had only been grazed by Wick...I'm wondering why he felt all clumsy all of a sudden. Maybe Mel did something?

I was wondering about that, but then I realized that he felt clumsy because he couldn't draw Longclaw from its scabbard on his back. It could have simply that he didn't realize that someone or something was holding it in the scabbard, so it wasn't a problem with his hand, just that he didn't understand why his hand was having trouble drawing the sword.

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More grist for the Jon is dead and will be resurrected mill. My post from the thread for the previous Jon chapter:

Actually, it said "Corn" and "King" and "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow".

The myth of the Corn King.

I doubt we'll see Jon back in "human form" till the last book.

Not much to say other than thanks for the cool info. :)

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Very very depressed after reading this chapter! I was hoping Jon would be around when the dragons arrive in Westeros. Whether he will be reborn in fire & salt or as Ghost (so that's why the Varamyr Prologue was for) or he becomes another Cold Hands, maybe George doesn't even know either!

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Stunning, complete curveball from GRRM.

I read a semi-spoiler by accident by clicking on the wrong link and seeing a post entitled "Who will be the 999th commander of the NW?" So I spent every jon chapter from Jon 7 on worried about his death. Then the whole march to Winterfell story developed and I thought, "oh he's safe, thats why the NW needs a new leader" and then BOOM, mutiny Caesar style:

So obviously there are about 3 general directions this can go:

1. Jon's dead, lets all move on. I think this the least likely option.

2. Jon will warg into someone or something. I also think this is very thin. Jon's warging skills are incomplete and while we know a lot about warging, not everything was cleared up about it in the prologue. Besides, if a person Wargs, their body can still die. I'm not sure a "Ghost" POV would be useful in the next 2 books.

3. Jon will be revived/saved from death. This is the most likely scenario given how important Jon's character seems to be for myriad reasons, i.e need a northern POV, is he AA reborn, who is the heir to Winterfell. Mel will likely play a role in this, though a woods witch (say the one from Hardhome) might also be able to this far north.

I do wonder if we'll ever get a Jon POV again. We've never had a POV from someone who was saved/reanimated. We've never had an UnCat POV and we haven't had a Brienne POV since her near death experience (its also possible she died and was brought back rather than have her noose cut down).

My question is, is everyone who comes back a zombie of sorts? We had UnCat, UnDrogo and we don't know what we have w/ UnGregor. But every time Beric Dondarrion came back, he remembered who he was, what he was doing and wasn't a zombie.

I just really hope Jon's still alive. He was the last really likeable POV left along w/ Tyrion. Yes this opens up more room for Bran, Sansa and Arya and even Rickon (via Davos POV). But Jon's work can't be done yet... that would be too unsatisfying.

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I don't think he's going to die, so I don't feel he'll need to be brought back, the more I think on it. I think Mel's role will be as healer. I believe Jon will be in some sort of warg state during the whole ordeal, though he may not fully warg into Ghost. Maybe he does this to escape bodily pain for a bit. Jon's opening pov chapter in DWD is kind of what I'm talking about.

As for his clumsiness, I think there's more to it than the scabbard being on his back. I haven't reread this part, but I have a hunch.

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The clumsiness could well mean that he was cut harder than he thought. He did have a lot of blood on his hands before he was stabbed the second time, and you know, it is a cut to the throat, immensely vulnerable. That would be enough to make him feel clumsy.

It's impossible to establish if he will die and be resurrected, or if he will be saved from death through an ordeal that will change him both physically and mentally. I think ( and prefer) the second.

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I must be one of the only people who don't really think his death was "cheesy". Whether or not he'll be brought back in some way is irrelevant, the writing was on the wall for him with the way he was disregarding the advice of his Brothers. As funny and endearing as his bro-mance with Tormund was (a character that I do like, don't get me wrong), Jon was far too much of a wildling to stay LC. He ignored the both the advice of Mel and the intuition of Ghost (flashbacks to Robb chaining up Grey Wind at the Twins) and was about to blatantly breaks his vows over a bullshit letter. You just can't do that when you're the Lord Commander, your duty is to the Wall.

I liked his character well enough and am hoping he comes back in some form, but this mutiny really doesn't surprise me. Reading his chapters was almost like reading Ned floundering around in Kings Landing all over again.

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I was truly upset when Jon died, almost cost me a good night's sleep, but thanks to this board I feel a bit comforted because so many people are convinced he's not really dead. Now we only have to wait 3 years or so.

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I must be one of the only people who don't really think his death was "cheesy". Whether or not he'll be brought back in some way is irrelevant, the writing was on the wall for him with the way he was disregarding the advice of his Brothers. As funny and endearing as his bro-mance with Tormund was (a character that I do like, don't get me wrong), Jon was far too much of a wildling to stay LC. He ignored the both the advice of Mel and the intuition of Ghost (flashbacks to Robb chaining up Grey Wind at the Twins) and was about to blatantly breaks his vows over a bullshit letter. You just can't do that when you're the Lord Commander, your duty is to the Wall.

I liked his character well enough and am hoping he comes back in some form, but this mutiny really doesn't surprise me. Reading his chapters was almost like reading Ned floundering around in Kings Landing all over again.

I don't agree at all Jon was doing stupid things because he was too much of a wildling. Through his chapters I came to admire him more and more because he was making impopular but necessary decisions. He didn't just think of his own people, but cared for the sake of all (weak, endangered) people within his reach - just like Daenerys cared for the slaves. Moving wildlings to south of the wall was Stannis' idea in the first place btw.

I think throughout the book Jon showed us what an excellent leader he is, but not everyone quite understood what he was doing (hence the mutiny), or what his bigger plans were, or his . I think Jon almost acted like a king in this book.

In fact, I recall him reflecting Stannis would understand his decisions.

I wish English was my natural language, I seem to lack the exact words to explain what I mean to say. :worried:

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