[ADWD Spoilers] Regarding comments on Dany

[noobilly]

I've been reading the discussions, and many people seem to express the sentiment that Dany seems rather stupid in this book. I'm not quite sure where this stupidity lies though.

Is it based on her attraction for Daario? Well, she does have a tad bit of weakness for handsome men, but I suppose that's pretty normal at her age. The real stupid thing would be to marry him, which she did not do, unlike a certain other character we know. Marrying Hidzach (spelling?) was actually a fairly decent move, as she could consolidate local support with it. Perhaps Hidzach was plotting behind her back, but she had no way of proving it, and she was suspicious if I remember correctly.

Is it based on the fact that the Yunkai now want war, showing that her peace treaty was a sham? The peace treaty seems to have been real before she got carried off by Drogon though, as the Yunkai presumably were not too keen on fighting three dragons and eight thousand Unsullied.

Is it based on the fact that she sat in Mereen for a long time instead of moving on to Westeros? Well, this argument has some merit, as it's really very unlikely that she could settle the slavery issue in a few years then proceed to Westeros. However, she did feel a strong moral imperative to eradicate slavery and not leave Mereen as Astapor had become, so I really can't fault here there as well. Moreover I think that another strong reason why she has not moved on is that she cannot really control her dragons....

Let's discuss this topic here.

[Mitchacho]

I used to quite like Dany, less so in this book, but her final chapter gives me hope. I can just imagine the khal coming up and she folly points at him, say dracaris (fire!). However, she did seem rather stupid for a number of reasons.

1-chaining her dragons. Seriously? My dragons are misbehaving and unruly so I'll lock them away. That'll work! It works with children, right? I know she's busy, but training dragons should be her priority, delegate the rest If necessary.

2 - mooning over Dario. Yes, a very teenage girl thing to do, being attracted to the bad boy, but I always thought better of her.

3 - Allowing the Yunkai to lay siege. She didn't even poison the wells! I know she said she couldn't leave, otherwise there would be an uprising. However, things could have been done to avert this, take hostages, remove all the food stores from the city. Expel the wise masters from the city. Impose curfew so anyone found outside would be killed, take shavepates and or Daarios advice and kill a whole bunch of suspected traitors. She wasn't so squeamish when she nailed up a whole lot of them before.

4 - staying in Mereen at all. I know, demon road = bad and lots of dead people, but so does staying in a city whose economy you have destroyed, and is way over capacity.

5 - Marrying Hizdah. I know this may have seemed like a good idea to bring peace, but in the long run? It was very much a 'look one move ahead' kind of strategy.

That said, I think the arc was very important for Dany as she needed to 'remember' who was and kill the child within to paraphrase Aemon.

[O'san'gar's Razor]

We got a window into her mental processes, and it wasn't pretty. Barristan the Bold, on the other hand, thought about things the right way (why are they doing this, who wants to hurt me). Daenerys just ignored that stuff.

Chaining the dragons, failing to attack the Yunkai army, and marrying were all ridiculously enormous mistakes.

On the other hand, she had no way to leave Mereen without leaving her army behind. Now, once Victarion arrives, that's another story.

[Logen Ninefingers]

What actions? She spends the book paralysed by inaction and a reluctance to take the hard choices.

Problem for me is that Mereen is just a silly place full of people with silly names that I just don't care about. If Dany doesn't give a shit about Westeros than I don't give a shit about her.

[jack88]

What actions? She spends the book paralysed by inaction and a reluctance to take the hard choices.

Problem for me is that Mereen is just a silly place full of people with silly names that I just don't care about. If Dany doesn't give a shit about Westeros than I don't give a shit about her.

dingdingding

There's another topic here where it's like "what do you want Dany to do next?" and I'm like I don't give a fuck, I just want her to do SOMETHING.

Chaining the dragons was massively stupid, I don't even know what the fuck she was intending to do with that. Chain them up forever? She didn't seem to be making any plans attempting to train them down there. They were also getting noticably large enough to start fucking up their enclosure, she saw this, and didn't seem to think of a viable future alternative. Compare how many times she thinks about what to do with her dragons as opposed to wanting to bang Daario. It's retarded. She's retarded too.

[Jon AS]

1-chaining her dragons. Seriously? My dragons are misbehaving and unruly so I'll lock them away. That'll work! It works with children, right? I know she's busy, but training dragons should be her priority, delegate the rest If necessary.

Except that the dragons had started eating people, and there is only so much delegating she can do. Robert delegated a lot, that didn't turn out so well.

2 - mooning over Dario. Yes, a very teenage girl thing to do, being attracted to the bad boy, but I always thought better of her.

Why? Tyrion is older, better educated and more cynical than her and she still falls for Shae.

4 - staying in Mereen at all. I know, demon road = bad and lots of dead people, but so does staying in a city whose economy you have destroyed, and is way over capacity.

Westeros is an abstract to her. We the readers know that that is where the focus of the plot is, but to Dany it's a far-off land she has never seen. Meereen is the city she has just conquered and thus become responsible for, and after the events at Astapor she's obviously determined to do better.

5 - Marrying Hizdah. I know this may have seemed like a good idea to bring peace, but in the long run? It was very much a 'look one move ahead' kind of strategy.

It seemed to be working. Securing political advantages through marriage happens all the time in the series. I really don't see it as bad idea.

[Saskia]

The real stupid thing would be to marry him, which she did not do, unlike a certain other character we know.

I resent this attack on poor Robb :P

Anyway Dany held strong to her convictions at first and in the end surrendered it all by marrying Hizdah, who clearly planned to run Mereen another way. And she was incredibly reactive to her dragon eating a child, there were so many other options but she chose the worst one.

[JKeats]

There's another topic here where it's like "what do you want Dany to do next?" and I'm like I don't give a fuck, I just want her to do SOMETHING.

I'd like her to die, and soon. How's that for plot progression.

[jack88]

I'd like her to die, and soon. How's that for plot progression.

For about 10 seconds I was super fucking giddy when I thought Drogon might actually eat her sweet ass for dinner in the fighting pit.

Shitloads of other main characters have died after betraying their principles like she had by then and we had a new Targaryen on the field, for those 10 seconds I seriously thought there was a good chance she was gonna get taken out.

[cteresa]

I have been following the arguments about Catelyn and Sansa for years. I have now come to the conclusion that GRRM can not write a long PoV of conventionally feminine woman (i.e somebody who does not fight with a sword/axe) without making her act stupid and in obnoxious ways. It´s a pattern by now.

[Bobbity]

I didn't like Dany's decision to marry Hizdahr, because it struck me as short sighted. Her eventual goal is Westeros, yet she's marrying him to keep the peace in Meereen, when she should be planning out her next move. It just seems as if she's forgetting about Westeros in her naive quest to end the slave trade.

Oh, and chaining the dragons up was silly. :P She was all right otherwise, though.

[jack88]

Chaining up the dragons was Bowen Marsh levels of retard imo.

I'm interested to see how it plays out, because Barristan noted that being chained up had stunted them, and Drogon was always the largest and now he is DEFINITELY the largest. Drogon vs Rhaegal/Viserion being controlled by the horn, anyone?

[GuybrushThreepwood]

Why? Tyrion is older, better educated and more cynical than her and she still falls for Shae.

Tyrion was emotionally manipulated, though. Dwarf inferiority complex and all. Dany just thought Daario was teh hawtness. They're not really the same.

Dany's real problem was that she was almost entirely reactive, never proactive. E.g. Don't train dragons=> dragons eat someone=> react by locking dragons up. Her reactions to the murders, to the invading army, to the Astapori, all of it is just sort of sitting there hoping things will work out.

[Mitchacho]

Except that the dragons had started eating people, and there is only so much delegating she can do. Robert delegated a lot, that didn't turn out so well.

**My dragons are eating people, so I'll lock them up. Is that what you would do if your own child ate someone :) Sorry for the tongue in cheek, but IMHO dragons come first. She is the Mother of Dragons after all. A well trained dragon is probably less likely to randomly eat people as well. Also, people are less likely to invade your city if dragons are flying around eating people.**

Why? Tyrion is older, better educated and more cynical than her and she still falls for Shae.

**And look how well that turned out for Tyrion :) **

Westeros is an abstract to her. We the readers know that that is where the focus of the plot is, but to Dany it's a far-off land she has never seen. Meereen is the city she has just conquered and thus become responsible for, and after the events at Astapor she's obviously determined to do better.

**Yep, I can see the logic, I just don't agree that it was a 'smart move'. Who are the Mereneese to her? Why are they more important than her birthright? Her duty? Her very reason for being?**

It seemed to be working. Securing political advantages through marriage happens all the time in the series. I really don't see it as bad idea.

[Saskia]

If GRRM reverses all we've gained in Sansa I would be so pissed.

And Dany won him a prize, she'll last until the last book at least. Futile death wishes boys.

[Spring Bass]

It just seems as if she's forgetting about Westeros in her naive quest to end the slave trade.

There's a big part of your answer. As someone mentioned up-thread, Westeros is a place she's heard about all her life, but never actually been (unless you count her birth on Dragonstone). She's Queen of Mereen right now. Her "children" need her, and so Westeros has to wait.

Her real flaw was that she didn't take decisive action on either leaving for Westeros or setting Mereen in order. She knew that the Sons of the Harpy were almost certainly coming from the former Wise Masters, but she couldn't bring herself to completely crush them like she did in Astapor.

[cteresa]

And did anybody notice Sansa-under-disguise (just kidding, not literally. I mean Pretty) on this book? She starts out great, trying to kill Tyrion. And then according to Tyrion PoV she becames a small early-Sansa clone.

[JKeats]

Her eventual goal is Westeros, yet she's marrying him to keep the peace in Meereen, when she should be planning out her next move. It just seems as if she's forgetting about Westeros in her naive quest to end the slave trade.

See, as much as I dislike Dany, I think marrying Hizdahr and trying to rule Meereen was the right choice. We are all constrained by choices already made, and Dany's great error happened all the way back in Astapor when she "traded" Drogon for all the unsullied in the city. Before that fateful moment, she had two options available: 1) heed Arstan Whitebeard and leave for Pentos without any Unsullied, or 2) heed Jorah Mormont and buy (with gold) as many Unsullied as she could and leave. Instead she did her little trick with Drogon and started the whole mess in Slaver's Bay. Going by the "you break it, you buy it" rule, she now had a duty to stay in Slaver's Bay, for as long as it took to bring order to the place. Meaning, she should have realised that she would be queen of Meereen for years and years, possible a very long time indeed. In fact, she should have come to terms with the real possibility that by adopting the role of "mother" and what not (makes me want to puke, btw), she would be giving up her dreams of Westeros. Which would have delighted me to no end!

What should Dany have done? She should have told Barristan she is in it for the long haul, explained to Quentyn that she is no longer interested in the Iron Throne, married Hizdhar much earlier, allow Yunkai to resume the trade, etc.

Or, you know, she could just kill herself. I'd be down with that too.

[Jon AS]

Tyrion was emotionally manipulated, though. Dwarf inferiority complex and all. Dany just thought Daario was teh hawtness. They're not really the same.

I never said it was the best way to spend her time, but Dany is 16. 16 year olds have been doing stupid things for as long as there have been 16 year olds.

And Tyrion gets off the hook for being stupid because he is ugly? I always thought that stereotype went the other way...

My dragons are eating people, so I'll lock them up. Is that what you would do if your own child ate someone

Err, yes actually. Particularly if the child in question is bigger and stronger than any man, can fly and breathes fire.

And look how well that turned out for Tyrion

Of course it's silly, but why expect more from a 16 year old under these circumstances?

Who are the Mereneese to her? Why are they more important than her birthright? Her duty? Her very reason for being?

Who are the Westerosi to her? Why are they more important than the tenths of thousands of people whose lives she has just turned upside down? Doesn't she have a duty to the people whose city she has just devastated? And who decided that sitting on the Iron Throne needs to be the sole focus of her life?

[Saskia]

And did anybody notice Sansa-under-disguise (just kidding, not literally. I mean Pretty) on this book? She starts out great, trying to kill Tyrion. And then according to Tyrion PoV she becames a small early-Sansa clone.

I can see the similarities, such as her tantrum over Tyrion leaving the dog and sow for dead. Her contentment to remain a slave though... god I hope not.