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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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So with what happened to him, I have a question

Seeing as he is likely severely wounded or dead from repeated stabbings.. . does that mean he'd no longer be bound by the oaths of the Night's Watch if Melisandre was to resurrect him.

It says the watch will not end 'till death, and if Jon is dead...

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I dont want to seem to critical. I know this is a GRRM fan site and dont want to step on peoples feet. I have to say that death has lost its shock value to me. When I read the Jon scene all I could think was "bullshit". It is aggravating. On one hand, he really is dead and thats bunk. On the other hand, here comes another "dead but not" which is becoming universal and somewhat silly. Regardless of how he returns. If it is a Fitz living in his wolf until his body is restored, or a Dondarrion brought back,or an FrankenGreggor, or a Brienne/Davos where he just appears to be dead, it still will stink of cheese to me. Death has definitely lost its shock value.

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Just re-read this a few times.

Few tidbits

- Jon is attacked in front of EVERYONE - queens men, NW and wildlings

- Jon is stabbed by Yarwick and Marsh, then 2 others

- GRRM makes it clear that Marsh is crying, Jon is "smoking" from his wound and describes the knights sigil who is getting killed by the giant - stars covered in the knights blood

My theory

Jon will be reborn as AA

Dany is the PTWP

Bran is the Last Hero

those are your 3 dragon riders

Dany totally fire

Bran totally ice

Jon ice and fire

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yeah after Mel revives him, why else did GRRM have her stay behind at the Wall?, Jon will be free of his vows and lead a wildling army south to Winterfell leaving behind some forces to man the wall. Doubtless there will be a few heads rolling on the wall before he heads off.

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Jon's death was not a shock for me, I saw it coming half way through his chapters. But I really hope that if he comes back, and I'm inclined to think he is coming back, that GRRM does not zombify him. UnJon would be the worst development I could think of.In fact, if that's my only option for Jon returning, then I would much rather he stayed dead.

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yeah after Mel revives him, why else did GRRM have her stay behind at the Wall?, Jon will be free of his vows so he can steal val and lead a wildling army south to Winterfell leaving behind some forces to man the wall. Doubtless there will be a few heads rolling on the wall before he heads off.

added stuff in bold underlined italics for you.

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GRRM said, IIRC, that Jon would take a turn and become more of a grey character. Maybe after he's revived, he realizes that trying to save innocent people's lives only leads to his friends betraying him, and then he's just like "fuck it" and decides to become amoral, or perhaps even immoral because he'll get pissed.

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It certainly isn't conclusive at this point if Jon is even dead. We know he was stabbed a few times, but we don't know how serious those wounds are. Certainly getting stabbed in the stomach/between the shoulders sounds bad, but we just don't know. Was he wearing leather/mail for example?

Even if Jon is dead, we again simply don't know enough about ways he could come back.

Is a person brought back by a Red Priest undead, some sort of wight, or alive? Beric seems very much alive when we see him, Catelyn seems more undeadish.

I think regardless of if he's dead or not, his watch has ended.

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GRRM said, IIRC, that Jon would take a turn and become more of a grey character. Maybe after he's revived, he realizes that trying to save innocent people's lives only leads to his friends betraying him, and then he's just like "fuck it" and decides to become amoral, or perhaps even immoral because he'll get pissed.

He became gray for a while in affc. I don't want a Cat repeat. No heorge will not ruin Jon for me. <_<

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I really hope that he doesn't become undead Jon. First it's overused already and it doesn't fit with the overarching storyline.

I dont want to seem to critical. I know this is a GRRM fan site and dont want to step on peoples feet. I have to say that death has lost its shock value to me. When I read the Jon scene all I could think was "bullshit". It is aggravating. On one hand, he really is dead and thats bunk. On the other hand, here comes another "dead but not" which is becoming universal and somewhat silly. Regardless of how he returns. If it is a Fitz living in his wolf until his body is restored, or a Dondarrion brought back,or an FrankenGreggor, or a Brienne/Davos where he just appears to be dead, it still will stink of cheese to me. Death has definitely lost its shock value.

I see a lot of posts about how coming from the dead is overused and I actually want to take issue with this. Cases like Brienne and Davos examples are fakeouts, cliffhangers, cases of outright (in-universe) deception or rumours and don't count as coming back from the dead. The Mountain was dying and whether Qyburn's methods involved sorcery, alchemy or advanced anatomy we don't know that Gregor ever actually died. The wights are just animated corpses. By my count that leaves Coldhands (another corpse - though one with the original sentience intact), Beric and Catelyn (who would seem alive if they needed sleep or food). Jon would make four. Is that really so many for a fantasy serious where one of the big themes is the return of magic? I'm also considering the possibility (which I picked up from another thread) that if Jon needs to die and be resurrected for plot reasons then it would seem like an asspull to suddenly have this happen in Book 6 with no precedent. You need a warm-up act.

- GRRM makes it clear that Marsh is crying, Jon is "smoking" from his wound and describes the knights sigil who is getting killed by the giant - stars covered in the knights blood

I'm really impressed by the people that picked up on this. I always miss these little hints on my first read. Although I wonder if the timing isn't off - this is Jon dying, not him being reborn.

I think all the focus and on 'cold preserves' and the ice cells and the meat lockers in the walls indicate that Jon's body is gonna be stored under the Wall for a little while. If the the fulfillment of prophecy can be as mundane as a man's tears it could also be a literal cellar full of salt.

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Even if Jon is dead - dead dead - I think he'll end up being reborn. And from this, he won't be UnJon, he will literally be alive. Dany had a metaphorical rebirth at the end of GoT - I think Jon may have one that genuinely restores him from death to life - ergo a living, breathing, eating, sleeping real Jon.

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There is NO WAY Jon is leaving the night's watch. His whole story is set around the need for greatness at the wall at this time. There is no other character that can defend the realm from the north. I am scared about where his story will go as AA does not sound like a great guy. I think Jon will have some more hard choices ahead. I don't think we will like all of the things he winds up doing.

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Is a person brought back by a Red Priest undead, some sort of wight, or alive? Beric seems very much alive when we see him, Catelyn seems more undeadish.

I think regardless of if he's dead or not, his watch has ended.

Beric's revival and his apparent liveliness was a function of how long he had been dead before he was revived. This seems to me to be a sort of "brain cell death" function of how it is with the undead. With Catelyn, she had been dead for three days and her trauma and decay was severe. Stoneheart is clearly NOT Catelyn Stark nee Tully.

With Benjen (assuming it is), he would have died north of the Wall and been revived soon thereafter, so I don't think his brain would have had much time to decay. Though it seems that some wights decay faster than others.

In the case of all three of these who return from the grave, it is very clear that they are NOT alive. They are undead. They do not eat, they do not drink, sleep, breathe or heal. They are animated, yes, but they are NOT alive.

With Jon, we have the ice cells and the whole "preservation" spell effect wrapped into the structure of the Wall at work, together with the unique case of being a warg whose consciousness/soul is transferred to his wolf. Unlike the other corpses who return from the grave, Jon's "soul" is nearby and can be rejoined. (As Drogo's could not be). I think GRRM will leave Jon in the cells for a lot longer than many of us will prefer. Probably just to freak us out a little and start to worry whether he'll stay dead!

BTW, it's not that death has lost its meaning in the series. It's that there are certain things you can't do with your main characters and be believed as part of your overall plot structure. And in all honesty, GRRM didn't WANT to be believed about killing Jon. That's why he puts so many clues in the novel that Jon's consciousness as a warg will go to Ghost, why he leaves Mel behind at the wall, why the ice cells are shown to us constantly, and why he lets us see inside Mel's head which shows Jon Snow as Azor Ahai.

GRRM isn't stupid. You can kill Ned as a shock -- and it certainly was. If there is any doubt of that, think back to the reaction of those who watched "Baelor" for the first time, not knowing what would happen. With the Red Wedding, it was definitely another throw the book across the room moment. I was entirely pissed when I read Jon's last chapter and I DID shout "NOOOOOO....BASTARD!!" as I was reading it. I was in a rage but would not come to this message board until I was done the last chapters first (and then I flew through them to come read here).

But it was pretty clear to me that Jon wasn't going to die because of all the clues GRRM had left. Which is good. Jon's my favorite character in the series and if GRRM actually perma-killed Jon in book five with at least two more to go? I might just stop reading and get off this goddamned train. And I'm not simply a fan of these books -- like many here, it's become a hobby.

And George knows that attachment to Jon amongst his readership. He is the only main character who has followed what is close to the traditional "hero's journey" in the series. Jon's the bastard the likaeble underdog. He's the one who is groomed for command, saves the Lord Commander from the wight, wins the magic sword, ventures beyond the wall, becomes part of Mance's court, saves Castle Black, saves the Realm and becomes Lord Commander. If there is a fantasy action hero in ASoIaF - Jon Snow is clearly that character in a way that Ned Stark never was.

So that's why GRRM left the clues in the novel so that we wouldn't freak the fuck out and go forth on the internet and in our local bookstores, warning everybody and their dog to not read the series (when we had before been the ones most likely to recommend it). GRRM has been planning this scene for a while. It wasn't a surprise road stop en route to L.A. from NYC: "Oh. You know, I could just kill Jon Snow here. Wouldn't that be a kick in the balls to readers? Yeah, let's do that."

No. it's not like that at all. I also don't think that Jon will come back as any shade or anything less than a human. He will not be some undead thing. He'll come back for real, the only one who does in the series.

*crosses fingers*

If not, I say a few million of us ride out in a sortie and strip GRRM of all his lands and titles and teach him why you don't kill off your hero with two books to go. :)

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