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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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There is NO WAY Jon is leaving the night's watch. His whole story is set around the need for greatness at the wall at this time. There is no other character that can defend the realm from the north.

On the other hand, just because his "death" unbinds him from his oath to the Night's Watch doesn't mean he won't stay on the wall to defend the realm. It just means he's no longer bound to the Watch.

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Another possibility is the "smoking wounds"-- possibly Melisandre uses magic to avert his death rather than cause it. As in, mystically shielding him and then casting an illusion of his death.

If he's due for a Miraculous Rebirth, I can't see it being anything we've seen so far. An undead Jon would be a real let-down. Either way, I'm hoping he'll at least stay dead through the next book. So far we've talked about a sorta-death excusing you from your Night's Watch duties-- but it seems very unlike Jon's character to use that loophole. What I'm envisioning is this:

Jon is "dead" and either burned or entombed in ice or whatever. Point is, he's out of play.

It's Chekhov's Wall: if you show a wall in Book One, you'll have to break it down by book seven. So far, the Others have barely affected the North, and have had no impact at all on the rest of Westeros. And how can they if they don't knock down the wall? With Jon out of action, it's safe to use the NW as a pinata without him being blamed. Thorne or Marsh or someone takes over as Lord Commander (with Mallister too old and Pyke out at sea during the selection). They reverse all of Jon's decisions and get the Watch destroyed and the Wall knocked down.

Then the Others can swarm over the seven kingdoms raining down terror on everyone. Now Jon returns. No more Night's Watch, no more oath. He's free to fight and win on his own terms, riding a dragon, wielding Lightbringer, eating lemoncakes, and free to enjoy the spoils afterwards.

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I saw somewhere someone say something about, if Mel heals Jon in the way Victarian is healed, then he will have the cracking fiery wounds. I dont remember the exact description of the hand healing, but of all possible outcomes this is the one I would like to see most. I dont like the dying and resurrecting method. But healing him with fire, even if he does scorched crackling stab wounds on him, would be cool.

And in relation to the question above, I am pretty sure that knight was trying to steal Val. In his eyes (because of Stannis) Val is a huge prize. He becomes a Lord of the Wildlings right away. Maybe even a Lord of the Gifts. She is also beautiful.

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I think that Jon isn't dead, I think he is injured. I think the reason for this is to allow him to become one with Ghost in a way he hasn't before, not through the "true death" and being reborn. my evidence for this is the following:

1) when varymyr dies he becomes one with the weirwood tree after he's kicked out of thistle, his spirit becomes one with everything and even sees bran and company on the elk before finally finding one-eye and experiencing the true death. When he experiences it he likens the true death to a shock of cold, and yes, the last lines of jon's chapter show that "all he felt was cold" but it didnt seem as drastic. there was no becoming aware of everything around him, becoming a part of everything around him. The way it is described seems a lot more like Asha's blackout scene, and even a little like Brans falling scene.

2) Mellisandre mentions to jon that he needs to use his abilities and he thinks "I am not a wolf" or something like that. in addition to her seeing him in her fires "first a man then a wolf then a man again" this got me thinking more and more about other wargs that we know of and how they have managed while severely injured on the brink of death (insert Brans name here)

Soooo i guess my crazy theory is that Jon isn't dead, and maybe while he is close to death he will warg into snow and embrace that ability. through the entire dance we barely ever saw him have a wolf dream, we barely saw him be as close to ghost as he was when he was with the wildlings. his plot line mirrored Robbs in some ways because he ignored ghost and walked into danger. But I think that Jon is going to have what Robb didn't which is a second chance to realize that Ghost is a lot more of a part of him and his abilities than he was willing to admit. what that means for the watch? well they cant very well have a comatose LC, so that ends that for the time being, as to the possibility of AA? I think he is, but am not sure how that will play out. I will say that I am a little concerned that Ghost may end up becoming some weird kind of Nissa nissa. which would suck...hardcore

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Whatever happened in the last chapter it involved sorcery.. Ghost growling to Jon, crow saying "Jon Snow" for the first time, the stewarts crying and saying "it wasn't me", Jon being unable to draw Longclaw. How can all these be explained? Was it Mel? Bloodraven? Bran? The wildling warg? Combination? I honestly cant find a reasonable explenation and i think this is the worst kind of cliffhanger i have ever seen!

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GRRM has tested my loyalties before with killing off major characters, leaving cliff-hangers (Brienne, Catelyn, Davos, etc), taking forever to write each book after ACOK and releasing publication dates that were as ficticious as his stories. But as Neil Gaiman reminded us - "GRRM is not your bitch!"

Jon Snow's not dead, he's just been Brienned (gotta love neology) and we'll have to wait to see what happens next. In a way I'm glad GRRM isn't dragging us through a drawn out story arc (such as the Meerenese Knot and Dany's subsequent sojourn through the desert).

IMHO, the biggest hint that Jon wouldn't remain LCC of the NW was when GRRM made him 998th. Why not 999th or 1000th? The NW is now dead as we knew it, largely due to Jon's actions and the reaction to them, with Pyke in no-man's land and Mallister isolated.

It's anyone's guess what will happen and we'll all be wrong anyway.

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Whatever happened in the last chapter it involved sorcery.. Ghost growling to Jon, crow saying "Jon Snow" for the first time, the stewarts crying and saying "it wasn't me", Jon being unable to draw Longclaw. How can all these be explained? Was it Mel? Bloodraven? Bran? The wildling warg? Combination? I honestly cant find a reasonable explenation and i think this is the worst kind of cliffhanger i have ever seen!

Not only that but I feel like grinding my teeth and have all kinds of anxiety at this point to know whether he's dead or not! I hate this!

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Bit of a bummer that we're going to have to wait five years to find out what's really going on, but so far as Jon's oath to the Watch goes its worth recalling the Old Bear's comment back in GoT when Jon saves him from the wight - that the Watch had forgotten its real purpose. It had become an end in itself and had lost sight of its role of fighting the Others/White Walkers/Elves(?). The Wall and the Watch guarding it are irrelevant in themselves. This otherwise inexplicable "killing" of Jon may be the final break between between the old Watch and the new battle...

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Considering the reaction here, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to set the next book's tone by showing Jon's funeral pyre along side his also recently departed pet, Ghost, during a Mel POV where she's thinking "Wow I really thought Jon wasn't going to die that quickly, too bad."

It's Winds of Winter. This is Empire Strikes Back territory...

And let's not kid ourselves. No one will stop reading the series, just like none of the new TV viewers of GOT stopped watching after Ned's head got chopped off.

Don't end up a Frey eating Manderly pie. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

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Bit of a bummer that we're going to have to wait five years to find out what's really going on, but so far as Jon's oath to the Watch goes its worth recalling the Old Bear's comment back in GoT when Jon saves him from the wight - that the Watch had forgotten its real purpose. It had become an end in itself and had lost sight of its role of fighting the Others/White Walkers/Elves(?). The Wall and the Watch guarding it are irrelevant in themselves. This otherwise inexplicable "killing" of Jon may be the final break between between the old Watch and the new battle...

I just thought of something. If Jon survives he will no longer be part of the nights watch at this point which means that he can leave and take care of Ramsay. I am kinda depressed but don't think that its going to take five years. My feeling is about 3.

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Here's a question that I don't recall anyone bringing up: what prompted Wun Wun (my new favorite character, by the way) to kill Ser Patrek, and why did that in turn prompt Bowen Marsh and company to assassinate Jon?

I thought that Patrek wanted to take Val, and Wun Wun was in the way. It just gave enough distraction for Bowen to stab Jon for breaking his vows.

Concerning the theory that Jon would be free from his vows after Mel brings him back and would go for the Bastard, I think it would be directly opposite situation - he would finally die as a boy and be reborn as a man (as Dany did in AGOT). As Beric he would lose a bit of his humanity and love for friends and relatives which would finally make him a real Lord Commander.

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I just had to reread the melisandre chapter after stumbling into this discussion and I just wanted to see what everyone thought about this, it's from her chapter, pg 408.

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

"limned in tongues of red and orange" -I thought limned was a typo til I looked it up.

1. Depict or describe in painting or words.

2. Suffuse or highlight (something) with a bright color or light.

When I read the chapter were Victarion got his fiery arm, it made me think of this. Except maybe Jon's whole body will be like that. I'll have to find that Victarion chapter and reread it to be sure.

"Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again" -It could just be showing her that he's a warg, not sure if she already knew that about him. OR something else... like his consciousness in ghost while he's "dead" then back to his body if she revives it.

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I personally don't think Jon is dead, though I could of course be wrong.

I don't know if this has been said before but in the prologue it says, "They say you feel warm near the end, warm and sleepy.(page 11 US HC)" Jon only felt the cold which leaves me to believe he is still alive.

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I also don't think Jon is dead dead. Really killing him at this point in the story doesn't make any sense, imo, it would just be for shock value and to drive home that "nobody is safe". But you can defy the tropes and conventions of writing only so far before it becomes bad writing. And killing off a character that has been developed as one of the protagonists for 5 books would be just that. But it does give everyone something to discuss about for the next few years. ;)

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