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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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I personally don't think Jon is dead, though I could of course be wrong.

I don't know if this has been said before but in the prologue it says, "They say you feel warm near the end, warm and sleepy.(page 11 US HC)" Jon only felt the cold which leaves me to believe he is still alive.

Aren't they talking about freezing to death here?

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yes, but how the hell would they know?its not like they heard it from a friend, since youd have to die to experience death

also, jon snow isnt dead, he has plot armor, he might die later in the series, but not like this, it wouldnt make sense, still pissed me off how GRRM left us on a clifffhanger like that :angry2:

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A crackpot theory that could turn out to be interesting, what if the whole song of ice and fire is just setting up for a Targ vs Stark ending. Jon either gets revived in a way by the others instead of Mel like is believed. Not as a wight but as one of the others that gets described kind of like an incorporeal white mist. Arya with the many faced god of shadow and death who could be the god in opposition to the god of the red priests who is the fire god. Bran with the children of the forest. Rickon somehow playing a role out in Skaagos getting wilder by the minute. Not sure how Sansa could fit in to the ridiculousness. Warg vs Dragon, Targ vs Stark, Fire vs Ice.

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Mwahaha

A blue Rose sprouting from the Wall?

Rumors of an Ice Dragon buried in the wall?

Heh. Jon is going to be put in an ice cell and he's going to come back. :D

I don't particularly care if he's UnJon, Ghost Jon or Jon but I think he's coming back.

I think he wargs to Ghost, so he can be called back easily, or he can slip back into his skin, or the smoking wounds indicate Melisandre is protecting him. Or he will rise (from Mel's spells and his own kings blood) from his own funeral pyre and be a burned man reborn from the flames like Victarion's arm. Regardless, it will be good, and those damned slippery metaphorical prophecies will be all the more literal. Heh.

I certainly didn't see his Caesar's death coming, but giving him the death of Julius Caesar was a masterfully brilliant stroke. Having him be reborn from fire and ice will be all the better. Arya's last task at the end of the series will be to give him peace and help him to find the true death that he will be pining for.

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At the very least he will still be alive as a perma-warg in ghost. I dont think we have ever seen a red priest bring back a warg before so if melisandre tries to ressurect him, it will kind of be a meeting of the old god's magic with the r'hllor magic

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At the very least he will still be alive as a perma-warg in ghost. I dont think we have ever seen a red priest bring back a warg before so if melisandre tries to ressurect him, it will kind of be a meeting of the old god's magic with the r'hllor magic

We've already had one Old Gods/R'hllor ressurection and that wasn't pretty.

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Many have said it before, and I'll say it again: Jon is Azor Ahai. The foreshadowing in ADWD is a cincher. Here is what I have picked out of the book:

Melisandre: "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

- It's right there in front of her eyes, though she doesn't see it. Stannis is not AA. Jon is AA.

Jon in a dream in ADWD: Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

- A blade that burned red? Lightbringer anyone?

Jon, in his final chapter of ADWD: He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

- Snowflakes melting in his hair, likely due to the heat coming from Jon. To become AA, he must transform himself from boy to man. I think that Jon's death was his final sacrifice in order to become AA reborn. In that same chapter, it talked about other sacrifices Jon made, including Ohorin Halfhand. It also said that Jon took off Robb's head with Longclaw, implying that his inaction sacrificed Robb.

I don't think that we have to worry about Melisandre making Jon an undead zombie. Jon's "death" will allow a new spirit to consume his body and he will be truly reborn, a moment similar to Dany's rebirth with her dragons.

I can't wait for Winds of Winter.

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Many have said it before, and I'll say it again: Jon is Azor Ahai. The foreshadowing in ADWD is a cincher. Here is what I have picked out of the book:

Melisandre: "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

- It's right there in front of her eyes, though she doesn't see it. Stannis is not AA. Jon is AA.

Jon in a dream in ADWD: Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

- A blade that burned red? Lightbringer anyone?

Jon, in his final chapter of ADWD: He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

- Snowflakes melting in his hair, likely due to the heat coming from Jon. To become AA, he must transform himself from boy to man. I think that Jon's death was his final sacrifice in order to become AA reborn. In that same chapter, it talked about other sacrifices Jon made, including Ohorin Halfhand. It also said that Jon took off Robb's head with Longclaw, implying that his inaction sacrificed Robb.

I don't think that we have to worry about Melisandre making Jon an undead zombie. Jon's "death" will allow a new spirit to consume his body and he will be truly reborn, a moment similar to Dany's rebirth with her dragons.

I can't wait for Winds of Winter.

In AGOT he dreamt of Winterfell being empty, the stables burnt down (see Theon's last thought) he ran the halls shouting for his father (dead), Benjen (dead) Robb (dead) and Arya (i am no one) he didnt want to go down to the crypts where the dead starks were but he knew he had to go. Could be a fortelling of his own 'death' and i'm hoping Arya's death is not completely as well :(

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I don't know what's the ultimate fate of Jon off course, but I would not like an UnJon. It would completely ruin the charachter and its development. I would prefer Jon beng that then him being a shadow of his former self.

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I think that Jon died and his soul and mind are now in Ghost's body. It's becoming the wolf from Mel's vision. To bring him back to real life Mel will have to bind his soul back to his body, but his soul and Ghost's are now the same. So Ghost's body will die, but Jon will live and Ghost will live in him. Jon with red weirwood eyes and wolf's instinct would be badass.

It's just my crazy imagination, but I don't find it impossible

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Bit of a bummer that we're going to have to wait five years to find out what's really going on, but so far as Jon's oath to the Watch goes its worth recalling the Old Bear's comment back in GoT when Jon saves him from the wight - that the Watch had forgotten its real purpose. It had become an end in itself and had lost sight of its role of fighting the Others/White Walkers/Elves(?). The Wall and the Watch guarding it are irrelevant in themselves. This otherwise inexplicable "killing" of Jon may be the final break between between the old Watch and the new battle...

Something I thought of while reading through Jon's chapters was that he was really being just as painfully ignorant about human motivation as Ned. Yes, life sucks when you're on the wall, but just like in prison, men become institutionalized to it. Jon's actions, while they made all sorts of sense, threatened that reality. Bringing thousands of wildlings south of the wall; people that men of the NW have been trained to think of as enemies their entire lives; are you effing kidding me? His actions are completely and totally changing their world around.

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i thought the prologues basically tells us that he's going to warg into something body else.

Yeah, I thought about this a lot while reading the book. The prologue makes a point of telling us about warging after death and Varamyr also mentions how powerful a warg Jon could be, so yeah, it could be going there.

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Something I thought of while reading through Jon's chapters was that he was really being just as painfully ignorant about human motivation as Ned. Yes, life sucks when you're on the wall, but just like in prison, men become institutionalized to it. Jon's actions, while they made all sorts of sense, threatened that reality. Bringing thousands of wildlings south of the wall; people that men of the NW have been trained to think of as enemies their entire lives; are you effing kidding me? His actions are completely and totally changing their world around.

Dude there are dead people walking around and the Others are mysterious monsters from the dawn of time.

If anything I think Jon could have forced this into Bowen and co's heads a bit more, like really drilled it in. Bowen wasn't involved in the slaughter at the FotFM and didn't see the Others/zombies raping everyone, whereas he did take a wound from a wildling while defending the Wall. Jon should have drilled it in more - maybe he did inbetween chapters, but from what we saw of his conversations with his men I thought he should have been way more firmer and harsh about the reality of their situation. Bowen has no idea how fucked they all are.

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Many have said it before, and I'll say it again: Jon is Azor Ahai. The foreshadowing in ADWD is a cincher. Here is what I have picked out of the book:

Melisandre: "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

- It's right there in front of her eyes, though she doesn't see it. Stannis is not AA. Jon is AA.

Jon in a dream in ADWD: Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

- A blade that burned red? Lightbringer anyone?

Jon, in his final chapter of ADWD: He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

- Snowflakes melting in his hair, likely due to the heat coming from Jon. To become AA, he must transform himself from boy to man. I think that Jon's death was his final sacrifice in order to become AA reborn. In that same chapter, it talked about other sacrifices Jon made, including Ohorin Halfhand. It also said that Jon took off Robb's head with Longclaw, implying that his inaction sacrificed Robb.

I don't think that we have to worry about Melisandre making Jon an undead zombie. Jon's "death" will allow a new spirit to consume his body and he will be truly reborn, a moment similar to Dany's rebirth with her dragons.

I can't wait for Winds of Winter.

Huh. I didn't pick up on that. But yeah I can see that. Jon is Azor Ahai, the Prince who was Promised. One other addition to that is the woods witch that Jenny of Oldstones brought to King's Landing. She said that the Promised Prince would be born from their line, and if Jon is Rhaegar's son then thats just more proof that he is Azor Ahai.

As for his death I say its been done for one reason. Chaos. Ramsay Bolton, i'd call him Snow but that'd be unfair to other Snows to be lumped into the same name as him, is going to march on the Wall no matter what. He doesn't have Theon and Jeyne, which speaks to me he hasn't beaten Stannis, and Jon can't give them to him because he doesn't have them either. Ramsay won't be swayed by words, and he doesn't give a damn about the Night's Watch. Jon will wake up/be reborn as Bolton sacks the Wall and the Others arrive at the same time for their fight. Two enemies at his door, it'll be up to Jon to rally the Night's Watch and its wilding allies to crush the Boltons and the White Walkers.

Its going to be epic, and I hope Jon drives the real Lightbringer through Bolton's gut.

Dude there are dead people walking around and the Others are mysterious monsters from the dawn of time.

If anything I think Jon could have forced this into Bowen and co's heads a bit more, like really drilled it in. Bowen wasn't involved in the slaughter at the FotFM and didn't see the Others/zombies raping everyone, whereas he did take a wound from a wildling while defending the Wall. Jon should have drilled it in more - maybe he did inbetween chapters, but from what we saw of his conversations with his men I thought he should have been way more firmer and harsh about the reality of their situation. Bowen has no idea how fucked they all are.

Yeah definitely.

I would have grabbed Marsh and his conspirators, thrown them out the gate and told them to come back in 24 hours after spending the night in the woods, if they didn't get killed, and then tell me we don't need the Wildings on our side.

Lord of the Night

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It's strange to me that the people at the Wall who actually spent their lives fighting the wildlings, ie the rangers were the ones who supported Jon. While the stewards, builders and septons who until recently rarely lost men to the wildlings were acting so illogically prejudiced.

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I think that Jon isn't dead, I think he is injured. I think the reason for this is to allow him to become one with Ghost in a way he hasn't before, not through the "true death" and being reborn. my evidence for this is the following:

1) when varymyr dies he becomes one with the weirwood tree after he's kicked out of thistle, his spirit becomes one with everything and even sees bran and company on the elk before finally finding one-eye and experiencing the true death. When he experiences it he likens the true death to a shock of cold, and yes, the last lines of jon's chapter show that "all he felt was cold" but it didnt seem as drastic. there was no becoming aware of everything around him, becoming a part of everything around him. The way it is described seems a lot more like Asha's blackout scene, and even a little like Brans falling scene.

2) Mellisandre mentions to jon that he needs to use his abilities and he thinks "I am not a wolf" or something like that. in addition to her seeing him in her fires "first a man then a wolf then a man again" this got me thinking more and more about other wargs that we know of and how they have managed while severely injured on the brink of death (insert Brans name here)

Soooo i guess my crazy theory is that Jon isn't dead, and maybe while he is close to death he will warg into snow and embrace that ability. through the entire dance we barely ever saw him have a wolf dream, we barely saw him be as close to ghost as he was when he was with the wildlings. his plot line mirrored Robbs in some ways because he ignored ghost and walked into danger. But I think that Jon is going to have what Robb didn't which is a second chance to realize that Ghost is a lot more of a part of him and his abilities than he was willing to admit. what that means for the watch? well they cant very well have a comatose LC, so that ends that for the time being, as to the possibility of AA? I think he is, but am not sure how that will play out. I will say that I am a little concerned that Ghost may end up becoming some weird kind of Nissa nissa. which would suck...hardcore

I agree with this but suggest that Jon will stay dead and just assume the second life as Ghost..."There would be a second life worthy of a king" Varamyr thinks of Ghost. So he will return but not in human form as Jon

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The Mountain was dying and whether Qyburn's methods involved sorcery, alchemy or advanced anatomy we don't know that Gregor ever actually died.

First off, I completely agree with most of your post. It is important to have had resurrection as part of the back story before It just pops up randomly in book 6. (If it does of course, there is no guarantee that Jon will be brought back). I also do not feel like that this has been overused.

I just think that there is too much evidence to suggest that the Mountain was actually dead rather then just injured. His skull shipped to the Prince of Dorne solidified that for me. It was recognizable by it's sheer size. It has been stated over and over again that no one in Westeros was the same size as Gregor.

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Many have said it before, and I'll say it again: Jon is Azor Ahai. The foreshadowing in ADWD is a cincher. Here is what I have picked out of the book:

Melisandre: "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

- It's right there in front of her eyes, though she doesn't see it. Stannis is not AA. Jon is AA.

Jon in a dream in ADWD: Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

- A blade that burned red? Lightbringer anyone?

Jon, in his final chapter of ADWD: He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

- Snowflakes melting in his hair, likely due to the heat coming from Jon. To become AA, he must transform himself from boy to man. I think that Jon's death was his final sacrifice in order to become AA reborn. In that same chapter, it talked about other sacrifices Jon made, including Ohorin Halfhand. It also said that Jon took off Robb's head with Longclaw, implying that his inaction sacrificed Robb.

I don't think that we have to worry about Melisandre making Jon an undead zombie. Jon's "death" will allow a new spirit to consume his body and he will be truly reborn, a moment similar to Dany's rebirth with her dragons.

I can't wait for Winds of Winter.

The part I bolded is also yet another clue that R+L=J. Black ice? Red blade? Those be Targaryen colours, baby.

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