[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate

[dragomort]

What are some of the hints of Jon coming back?

Warging

The Ice cells

The large shadow he casts on the wall - from Mel

The prophecy he sorta fulfills = smoke/salt/stars

Missing any?

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but when Mel is looking for Azor Azhai and seeing 'only snow' she sees him as 'a man, a wolf and then a man again' or something like that. I assume someone has easier access to the direct text, but it jumped out at me. And going by the Varamyr set-up it seems like that'll be the path.

---looks like someone else did mention it :o just count this as confirmation that it's there!

[unJon]

unJon! Heh. Maybe he takes over Wun Wun a la Bran into Hodor (Hodor has giant blood). That would be sweet. But sings do seem to point to him spending some time as Ghost.

[schneff8]

What are some of the hints of Jon coming back?

Warging

The Ice cells

The large shadow he casts on the wall - from Mel

The prophecy he sorta fulfills = smoke/salt/stars

Missing any?

GRRM mentioned Jon's burned hand a little to much for it to be just coincidence. Sort of like the "if there is a gun in the first act" something about his hand being burned will come back into the story. Hopefully it will be Jon not really being dead or coming back.

[awesome possum]

I tried making a new post to cover this, but the SQL errors kept eating it.

Anyway, Jon is not dead:

I'm fairly certain Jon is not dead after a little investigating. It's possible this is just a coincidence and means nothing, but I think it means a lot.

Let me present my two pieces of evidence.

First up, the final line of Theon's last chapter in ACoK:

The last thing Theon Greyjoy saw was Smiler, kicking free of the burning stables with his mane ablaze, screaming, rearing...

Now, Catelyn's final chapter in ASoS:

Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.

And finally, Jon's final two lines from his last chapter in ADwD:

He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

Catelyn is Dead-dead (until Beric resurrects her) when her chapter ends. Theon is not, though many believed he was til ASoS. His chapter ends with the ellipsis, same as Jon.

It might just be a coincidence, but I firmly believe that if Jon had died, the sentence would have ended in a period.

[rugcollector]

great to read all this speculation about jon's resurrection or his not really dying. when i initially read the chapter i was devastated. still, it is not unlike grrm to kill of key characters -- ned, robb, joff, etc. so jon might really be dead after all.

[Yarya]

Totally not dead! At first I didn't think about all the not-deaths we've had so far, it all just happened so fast and left me reeling with shock, anger and yes utter despair! I hope he comes back as something more than a Zombie, it's Jon, he has a whole load of unfulfilled plot, potential and history. Fingers will be crossed for the next five years. Thanks guys for giving me hope and possibilities to brood on :)

[Noroldis]

If Jon is indeed the "blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness" in the "bride of fire" part of the prophetic visions Dany saw in the House of the Undying, then it appears that she's fated to marry him, and perhaps fall in love with him as well. And I can't envision her deciding to marry a zombie/wight, much less falling in love with one.

[flyerhawk]

great to read all this speculation about jon's resurrection or his not really dying. when i initially read the chapter i was devastated. still, it is not unlike grrm to kill of key characters -- ned, robb, joff, etc. so jon might really be dead after all.

Jon is unlike any of those characters in that he has been a primary character throughout the series and his destiny has been a central point to the entire series. Killing him off would be like killing off Aragorn in The Two Towers.

If Jon is going to get killed it won't be until the end of the book.

When I first read the chapter last week I was upset but after a few days of contemplation it is clear to me that Jon is most certainly not dead dead. I actually believe he will come back ala Gandalf and be even badder ass than he was before although I am not sure how.

[R_Thunder]

GRRM mentioned Jon's burned hand a little to much for it to be just coincidence. Sort of like the "if there is a gun in the first act" something about his hand being burned will come back into the story. Hopefully it will be Jon not really being dead or coming back.

Jon was constantly flexing his sword hand, burnt hand. Need to go back and see what they were talking about when he was doing this.

[Carlucio]

Jon will Reborn as Azor Ahai, the wildlings chose their kings and they choosed jon to trust, as king beyond the wall he will be the king in Melisandre profecy.

[GreyJackal]

I am unsure of Jon's death personally. He went out like Julius Caesar and got pincushioned.

In any case, I hate cliffhanger deaths so I will just tell myself he is dead to give myself some peace until the next book. <_<

[Pecan]

Dude there are dead people walking around and the Others are mysterious monsters from the dawn of time.

If anything I think Jon could have forced this into Bowen and co's heads a bit more, like really drilled it in. Bowen wasn't involved in the slaughter at the FotFM and didn't see the Others/zombies raping everyone, whereas he did take a wound from a wildling while defending the Wall. Jon should have drilled it in more - maybe he did inbetween chapters, but from what we saw of his conversations with his men I thought he should have been way more firmer and harsh about the reality of their situation. Bowen has no idea how fucked they all are.

Yeah, this is basically what I was getting at. Sort of. When you think about it, it's really a question of leadership and Jon just isn't quite there yet. He's smart enough to make the right decisions. It's clear that he's had a solid education, both military and otherwise, but he's still learning how to lead men - very similar to Robb.

Rather than have this happen to him, which I think will lead to some sort of cheesy resurrection or rebirth, I honestly think it would have been cool to see him develop more and somehow win over the dissenters within his own ranks, because very clearly, he was (is) on the brink of putting together a whole new power structure in the north.

I really hope he is just gravely wounded but somehow survives without supernatural aid or by warging into his wolf or whatever. That would be cheesy.

[Cinn-a-Bronn]

Jon isn't even my favorite character, but I was SO pissed off when I read this.

He went out like Julius Caesar

This is worrisome. I don't think there is any way that he can live without magic being involved. Unless some of you are correct, and is the only person to be actually resurrected from death, he will die, as his wounds are most certainly mortal. These guys are soldiers, and they were meaning to kill him, not wound. I don't want some sort of undead creature walking around in Jon's body. And I also don't want Jon to be a wolf for the rest of the series, constantly having internal dialogues filled with lines about "Man (insert noun or adjective here)" and half-recognitions of people and places he knew as a man. That would be garbage.

As the rest of the series is so good, I'm having a little faith and hoping GRRM doesn't fuck up the narrative in the last two novels.

Jon was constantly flexing his sword hand, burnt hand. Need to go back and see what they were talking about when he was doing this.

It may be something, but I think it just became a nervous habit for Jon. Unless he was alone, it seemed to me it was always mentioned when he was getting angry, or agitated with someone.

[Pecan]

unJon! Heh. Maybe he takes over Wun Wun a la Bran into Hodor (Hodor has giant blood). That would be sweet. But sings do seem to point to him spending some time as Ghost.

I think you could be right, but I don't like that at all. One of the things that drew me to this series originally was the relatively lighter emphasis on magic and supernatural activity. I think Dany being "unburnt", but otherwise pretty much mortal is pretty cool. But Jon getting stabbed to death Julius Caesar style, then warging into his wolf, and somehow coming back seems pretty cheesy to me. It's too fantastical. I need some sort of plausible explanation that tells me how I can believe that Jon Snow survives multiple dagger thrusts, including one to the gut.

[awesome possum]

One of the things that drew me to this series originally was the relatively lighter emphasis on magic and supernatural activity.

With dragons back alive magic is back alive as well. It was bound to happen. As for supernatural... the very first thing any of us read involved weird alien dudes and zombies. Supernatural was bound to be a huge part of the story, no matter how much the first two books dealt with human elements.

[Pecan]

With dragons back alive magic is back alive as well. It was bound to happen. As for supernatural... the very first thing any of us read involved weird alien dudes and zombies. Supernatural was bound to be a huge part of the story, no matter how much the first two books dealt with human elements.

Oh sure, I get that. But, I just hope GRRM doesn't overdo it is all.

Maybe he'll rise like Neo in the Matrix. I think I would rather see that than some extended sequence of "Ghost" chapters before Jon's spirit magically goes back to his own body.

[Brienne the Beauty]

I'm certain that Jon's body is dead but his spirit lives on in Ghost. The double meaning of the direwolf's name has dawned on me.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but when Mel is looking for Azor Azhai and seeing 'only snow' she sees him as 'a man, a wolf and then a man again' or something like that. I assume someone has easier access to the direct text, but it jumped out at me. And going by the Varamyr set-up it seems like that'll be the path.

---looks like someone else did mention it :o just count this as confirmation that it's there!

That's right. OK. I will give this a possibility. Of course, it could simply be GRRM fucking with us and that is simply referring to Jon being a warg.

I tried making a new post to cover this, but the SQL errors kept eating it.

Anyway, Jon is not dead:

I'm fairly certain Jon is not dead after a little investigating. It's possible this is just a coincidence and means nothing, but I think it means a lot.

Let me present my two pieces of evidence.

First up, the final line of Theon's last chapter in ACoK:

Now, Catelyn's final chapter in ASoS:

And finally, Jon's final two lines from his last chapter in ADwD:

Catelyn is Dead-dead (until Beric resurrects her) when her chapter ends. Theon is not, though many believed he was til ASoS. His chapter ends with the ellipsis, same as Jon.

It might just be a coincidence, but I firmly believe that if Jon had died, the sentence would have ended in a period.

Ellipsis are a not something I would trust.

Look at the words. Theon is watching a horse die.

Cat is being mortally wounded.

Jon is being mortally wounded (and already has been).

Jon is dead and will live on as Jon's Ghost. Though I will accept the theory that he will get his/another person's body hinted at in Mel's prophecy.

[David Selig]

Yeah, this is basically what I was getting at. Sort of. When you think about it, it's really a question of leadership and Jon just isn't quite there yet. He's smart enough to make the right decisions. It's clear that he's had a solid education, both military and otherwise, but he's still learning how to lead men - very similar to Robb.

Rather than have this happen to him, which I think will lead to some sort of cheesy resurrection or rebirth, I honestly think it would have been cool to see him develop more and somehow win over the dissenters within his own ranks, because very clearly, he was (is) on the brink of putting together a whole new power structure in the north.

I really hope he is just gravely wounded but somehow survives without supernatural aid or by warging into his wolf or whatever. That would be cheesy.

Surviving the types of knife wounds he got without supernatural help would be much more cheesy IMO. There isn't even a maester at hand in Castle Black at the moment IIRC. Jon was stabbped deeply in the belly, and those type of knife wounds are tough even for modern medicine to deal with, and he got stabbed between the shoulder blades too.

[rhaze]

That would just be so Fitzish. I wouldnt want to see GRRM using the exact same method another author has already used.