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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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Just some more reason why I doubt Jon is dead.

Probably a lot of people overall pull for the Starks.

Robb is dead

Sansa has lost her wolf

Arya is becoming less Starkish everyday, becoming a faceless man

Bran is going to become a tree more or less

Rickon is 6.

Take a 5 year gap like there should have been

That puts Bran in a tree

Arya a faceless man

Sansa still not a stark - i doubt the north woudl rally aroudn her

Rickon is 11

No real person for the north to rally around a Stark

not saying that Jon will become lord of Winterfell, just that he will rally the north because he is the only Stark worth rallying around

Not the reason he isnt dead, just some roundabout writers explanation of why he shouldnt kill of Jon.

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I just don't see any plausible way that Jon lives through this. At the same time, it makes no sense to kill him. So WTF?

Maybe Jon wargs into Ghost and then heads south to hook up with Nymeria and then they get together with Rickon and Shaggy or they go to the Vale and become Sansa's mystical wolf protectors. That sounds kind of stupid and fairytale-ish though.

So, again, I really don't like what GRRM has done here. I just don't get it at all. Oh well, guess we'll find out in a few years.

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I just don't see any plausible way that Jon lives through this. At the same time, it makes no sense to kill him. So WTF?

Maybe Jon wargs into Ghost and then heads south to hook up with Nymeria and then they get together with Rickon and Shaggy or they go to the Vale and become Sansa's mystical wolf protectors. That sounds kind of stupid and fairytale-ish though.

So, again, I really don't like what GRRM has done here. I just don't get it at all. Oh well, guess we'll find out in a few years.

Any plausible way? Half the characters in the book have died, in some fashion, only to be resurrected. Tyrion had an axe in his head. Catelyn had her throat cut. Dondarrion made dying and resurrecting a hobby. What is the common denominator between Jon, Dondarrion and Catelyn? That's right, a red priest is hanging around.

If GRRM wants Jon to stay alive, he has a plan to keep him alive. IMO, he actually is going to make this a pretty big deal, Jon will die and return as something bigger.

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I agree with the earlier post that the purpose of Jon's death may be to give us a "sort of" POV of an Other. Although we don't know how the Others reanimate corpses or what their motivation for killing is wouldn't it be awesome to have a closer look? Obviously if an Other reanimates a corpse there is no struggle by the dead person, no awareness. They are dead and gone. But in the case of a warg there would be awareness. Maybe enough to give us a glimpse of their plight.

If Jon's life has a theme it is learning to make his way and his mark in environments somewhat hostile to him. As a bastard in the Stark home he loved and was loved by most of his family. He started poorly at the Wall but learned and gained brothers. He lived amongst the Wildings and found companionship and respect there. This makes him uniquely qualified to survive with his identity intact, thriving even, in the margins. It makes him a bridge builder where possible and a knowledable foe where not. Maybe this has been leading to the ultimate test...to live amongst the Others in some fashion and to learn about them. Even if the learning all comes from an inward mental struggle against the consciousness of an Other.

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First, I think the Wun Wun attack is pretty self explanatory. Just a few pages back Jon tells Ser Patrek in no uncertain terms that Val will only accept him if he demonstrates "his strength, his cunning and his courage." In the eyes of a southron knight what better way to do just that than to kill the "evil" giant that is holding Val prisoner. We all know that Wun Wun is neither evil nor Vals goaler, but to poor Ser Paterek, it could certainly seem that way. He attacks Wun Wun to win Val and fails miserably.

Second, I don't think Jon is dead, as the whole R+L subplot would be for nought if he is dead. I think he is wounded and will be revived, and it won't be magical or supernatural revival. Just good nursing and a long recovery.

Jon has to die because the wall has to come down. The whole point of the series is to have an epic Dragon vs The Others fight at the end, and Jon has to die to make it happen.

I think DemiNymph is onto something very important here.

Why does he have to die for the Wall to fall? It's not like his life is somehow connected to the fact that the Wall is still standing. ;)

I don't think it is a magical connection. Rather it is because (until his foolish decision to go after Bolton) Jon has been doing all the right things to stop the Others at the wall. Had Jon's plan to re-garrison all the castles been successful, the story ends right there. Others come, the wall and the watch stop them... atalhea.

I have to think that when the others reach the wall, they will be able to scale the wall even easier than the wildling climbers. They walk on top of the snow, they are cold incarnate. Climbing a wall of ice shouldn't be all that hard.

Yes, there are spells in the wall, but if the spells were a whole and perfect barrier to the Others, why not a magic fence? Why does the wall need to be 700' tall? I think it is to give the defenders enough time to repel the attackers. I think the wall was built so that the wights and others would have to climb the wall and in so doing, give the watch enough time to effectively defend the wall. "A wall is only as good as the men who walk it."-Ned Stark

In order for the realm of men to be threatened by the Others, the Others have to overcome the wall, and to do that, I think the defense of the wall needs to be in chaos. Forgetting the immediate fate of Jon, the attack on Jon will almost certainly cause a huge conflict.

There are 6 or more factions that were all being held together by Jon:

The Bowen Marsh followers among the nights Watch who have opposed Jon's efforts. (and this may be more than 1 group)

The Queensmen

The Jon loyalists within the Watch

The Freefolk who truly follow Tormond and are loyal to Jon

The Wildlings who went along with the whole situation, but aren't loyal to Jon, (and their might be 3 or 4 groups in this category)

The Northmen from the Mountains

With Jon gone, these groups will all be at each other's throats. Perhaps there will be some alliances, but all hell is going to break loose. And while the men are fighting against each other, who will be manning the wall? I just don't see these factions all trying to kill each other and someone blows a horn 3 times and they all rush side by side to defend the wall. This doesn't work logistically, and is much to simple for the tone of the rest of the books.

Jon has to die (or be seriously injured IMnHO) for the fragile peace amongst the walls defenders to be broken so that the threat of the Others can be unleashed on the realm.

So it doesn't really matter if Jon is dead dead, if he is mostly dead and revived by magical means. whether he is reborn, or resurrected or whether he is just hurt bad. Jon needed to fall for the wall to fall for the threat to be real.

BTW, I love the theories about how Jon is saved or reborn. Some are crazy, some are crack pot, but nearly all are creative and fun to think about. Personally, I think Jon wargs into Ghost and saves himself, so to speak, with a lot of help from some of the others who are loyal to Jon. Once the immediate grave danger is passed, Jon is taken somewhere to begin healing, but before he can start recovery, the Others attack the wall and Jon et al end up running for their lives.

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Any plausible way? Half the characters in the book have died, in some fashion, only to be resurrected. Tyrion had an axe in his head. Catelyn had her throat cut. Dondarrion made dying and resurrecting a hobby. What is the common denominator between Jon, Dondarrion and Catelyn? That's right, a red priest is hanging around.

If GRRM wants Jon to stay alive, he has a plan to keep him alive. IMO, he actually is going to make this a pretty big deal, Jon will die and return as something bigger.

Tyrion had and axe in his head? Please help me remember where.

He gets a sword cut across the face, a deep and serious injury, but not nearly as mortal as an axe in the head.

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Jon is dead but can never die, but will rise again, harder and stronger. LOL.

No, we got a Varamyr prologue with very little to do the the overall story, it gave us HINTS TO WARGING at the beginning of the book and Jon's "death" is at the end of the book so we "forget" all the stuff we learned before. I can see no point to Varamyrs prologue except for being related to Jon.

And also Melisandre, "Look to the skies." In his dream at the beginning the moon says, "Snow"

and P.S. the Night's Watch isn't "true" anymore like Old Nan said. So IMO the Wall is in jeopardy.

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Jon was constantly flexing his sword hand, burnt hand. Need to go back and see what they were talking about when he was doing this.

Jon flexing his hand is usually a physical manifestation of his anger/frustration. He doesn't give away much when it comes to his facial features, but flexing his burnt hand is a sign he's ready to lose it.

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While I do like where the series came from, a world where magic was rare and dying. I do like how it is getting integrated and how big the costs of it seem to be. I would like to see Jon come back as much as the next person, but am afraid to see the cost.

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Bran also got tossed out a window and almost everyone was SURE he was gonna croak. but he didnt, he ran around as summer and then woke up. not saying it will be the same with jon, just saying that there are other possiblilities besides him being dead that would lead to jon warging into ghost for long enough for the wall to fall, meanwhile some sorcery could be used to help him heal with smoke and salt and all that fun stuff and blammo AA "reborn" when he wakes up. I think the elipses suggest that he is dying, in the act of dying, and unless something happens to stop him dying (which I think will) then well he'll actually die. but at the moment of the end of the chapter...dying not dead yet.

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Bran also got tossed out a window and almost everyone was SURE he was gonna croak. but he didnt, he ran around as summer and then woke up. not saying it will be the same with jon, just saying that there are other possiblilities besides him being dead that would lead to jon warging into snow for long enough for the wall to fall, meanwhile some sorcery could be used to help him heal with smoke and salt and all that fun stuff and blammo AA "reborn" when he wakes up. I think the elipses suggest that he is dying, in the act of dying, and unless something happens to stop him dying (which I think will) then well he'll actually die. but at the moment of the end of the chapter...dying not dead yet.

You're right, if Brienne can survive getting hanged, Jon can survive a few little cuts.

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I agree with the earlier post that the purpose of Jon's death may be to give us a "sort of" POV of an Other. Although we don't know how the Others reanimate corpses or what their motivation for killing is wouldn't it be awesome to have a closer look?

It makes him a bridge builder where possible and a knowledable foe where not. Maybe this has been leading to the ultimate test...to live amongst the Others in some fashion and to learn about them. Even if the learning all comes from an inward mental struggle against the consciousness of an Other.

Very interesting post (and welcome to the board!). This would be a cool development, especially considering that Jon's storyline has been bogged down with a lot of training/administrative stuff that doesn't leave much room for the magic, mystery, and adventure that fill out the other POVs. Having been set up as such an important character, he deserves a more interesting arc at this point than ordering around a bunch of losers.

That said, Bran and maybe Benjen Stark have been more obviously set up as liaisons with the Others. It would be a bit redundant for Jon to become an Other or partial Other.

But no doubt some terrible sacrifice will have to be made for him to be resurrected, and he'll be permanently altered by it. "Only life can pay for life." Maybe Melisandre will kill someone close to him? Ghost?

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The Night Watch is an important part of the development of Jon Snow. It is more a hindrance than a help in any future role he might have in the larger game of thrones. Finding a way for him to honorably exit the NW, such as having him killed then resurrected by Mel, opens the door for him to have that larger role. Status quo as Lord Commander gets in the way.

Having Jon Snow graveyard dead from here forward pretty much means there was a lot of wasted ink in the first four installments of the Song of Ice and Fire......

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That would just be so Fitzish. I wouldnt want to see GRRM using the exact same method another author has already used.

I think this is important, since we KNOW Martin is a fan of Hobb. I already saw the humans merging with their beasts as awfully Farseer-like.

Jon + Ghost method isn't it. I find the odds of this ASTRONOMICALLY low given his background and liking of Hobb's works. Anyone that has read the Farseer trilogy will understand why.

I think it's more likely that someone simply saves him and heals him of his wounds, be it Melisandre or some less supernatural healing. Not enough was given here. People can survive 4 stab wounds given immediate care. Remember that Bran survived being thrown out of a tower window.

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