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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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I'm warming up to the idea of Jon not being dead at all, just injured.

To add to the man-wolf-man thing, it occurs to me that maybe the stab wound in the back will temporarily paralyze him, so he goes either to ramsay and/or the ships as ghost since his body can't get there. <magical event> happens and then he's not paralyzed anymore.

the "black armor" thing has me worried that he'll be a wight, but i don't think we've seen one who's core body has been black, just the extremities, right?

somewhat tangentially related, am I making it up that black is the color to represent the Other? Does the fact that the Targ colors are red and black possibly signify that they are a merging/offspring/creation of both R'hyllor(sp?) and the Other?

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I'm not going to eloquently define my position, but here's what I think: fuck this bullshit.


  • Either he's dead, and his character was just another useless ploy.
  • Or he's some undead blah blah blah blah blah I have no fucking interest in that shit, its overused and pathetic

fuck.

I seriously just put down the book. I didn't even finish the rest of this ridiculous Dany/Martell crap.

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am I making it up that black is the color to represent the Other? Does the fact that the Targ colors are red and black possibly signify that they are a merging/offspring/creation of both R'hyllor(sp?) and the Other?

I don't agree with this on a literal level (if that's what you're implying), but it could definitely be true on a symbolic level. There's an obvious opposition between Targaryen/Heat/Fire/Red/R'hllor and Stark/Cold/Ice/Black/Others dichotomy, but we've also seen ways in which the "fire" side has some "ice" elements and vice versa. The fire side's ice elements include, as you said, the Targ color black, as well as the Black Flame of Moqorro. The ice side's fire elements include the red leaves of the weirwood tree and the red silk in Mance Rayder's cloak. I'm still figuring out my color symbolism theory, but your post points to the possibility that the Targs (and everyone else for that matter) are the product of a mixture between the forces of fire and the forces of ice, and that in fact fire and ice are always conjoined, never separate--there are no purely "ice" or "fire" characters.

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I'm not going to eloquently define my position, but here's what I think: fuck this bullshit.


  • Either he's dead, and his character was just another useless ploy.
  • Or he's some undead blah blah blah blah blah I have no fucking interest in that shit, its overused and pathetic

fuck.

I seriously just put down the book. I didn't even finish the rest of this ridiculous Dany/Martell crap.

Please, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

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I'm not going to eloquently define my position, but here's what I think: fuck this bullshit.


  • Either he's dead, and his character was just another useless ploy.
  • Or he's some undead blah blah blah blah blah I have no fucking interest in that shit, its overused and pathetic

fuck.

I seriously just put down the book. I didn't even finish the rest of this ridiculous Dany/Martell crap.

I don't believe those are the only choices.

However if it turns out to be one of those scenarios, I will likely just give up on the series.

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I think Jon is dead. The "it seems like he/she is dead, but he/she isn't" stuff is getting lame.

I agree with you that is becoming cliche in this series. However there are some fundamental problems with Jon dying off.

1. Jon dying would simply ignore the history of his parentage, something that GRRM has spent considerable time keeping a mystery.

2. Clearly Melisandre sees Jon as a being part of the big picture.

3. With Jon gone, there is simply no reason NOT to hand over everyone to Ramsay Bolton. He already has Rayder. Why wouldn't a knew LC simply give him everything he wants?

4. Who would be the at the Wall POV going forward? Would GRRM really wipe out 5 books worth of storyline and give us some new POV to keep the Wall relevant?

If I had to guess, I would say that Melisandre realized that Job was the AA and also saw the assassination attempt and did something to avert it or use that to further Jon's destiny.

Having Jon or turn into Zombie Jon completely destabilizes the entire storyline. He and Dany are simply too important at this point in the story. They may die before it is all said and done but certainly not now.

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Does Ghost need to die in order for Jon to be one of the Dragon riders?

Assuming Jon comes back from his multiple fatal stab wounds, Jon is almost certainly not a dragon rider. He burns. As Dany's and Quentin's attempts to tame a dragon have shown, not burning is an important part.

So, who do we have left? I would say Aegon and Shireen are the most likely candidates. Aegon for obvious reasons. Shireen has a bit of dragon blood in her. She has dreamed of dragons too. So far, we do not have confirmation that she is flammable.

Any of Quentin's blood relatives might make sense too, but I see no one special. Maybe his sister, but I don't think Dorne will be too pro-Dany after learning her dragons murdered Quetin (his own fault, but people are not always logical and fair in situations like this).

EDIT:

I agree with you that is becoming cliche in this series. However there are some fundamental problems with Jon dying off.

1. Jon dying would simply ignore the history of his parentage, something that GRRM has spent considerable time keeping a mystery.

2. Clearly Melisandre sees Jon as a being part of the big picture.

3. With Jon gone, there is simply no reason NOT to hand over everyone to Ramsay Bolton. He already has Rayder. Why wouldn't a knew LC simply give him everything he wants?

4. Who would be the at the Wall POV going forward? Would GRRM really wipe out 5 books worth of storyline and give us some new POV to keep the Wall relevant?

If I had to guess, I would say that Melisandre realized that Job was the AA and also saw the assassination attempt and did something to avert it or use that to further Jon's destiny.

Having Jon or turn into Zombie Jon completely destabilizes the entire storyline. He and Dany are simply too important at this point in the story. They may die before it is all said and done but certainly not now.

1. Point.

2. But even Mel admits she is not infallible. Or do you think Stannis is the true savior?

3. This will likely happen.

4. Mel would be my guess. Her one chapter does not count as a story arc.

I think Jon is dead but will live on as Ghost Jon. He may get a new body at some point in the story line.

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Jon in a dream in ADWD: Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

- A blade that burned red? Lightbringer anyone?

I think it's possibly black in reference to the color of Targaryen armor not that he's literally wearing ice but it's ice-like in appearance.

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Assuming Jon comes back from his multiple fatal stab wounds, Jon is almost certainly not a dragon rider. He burns. As Dany's and Quentin's attempts to tame a dragon have shown, not burning is an important part.

So, who do we have left? I would say Aegon and Shireen are the most likely candidates. Aegon for obvious reasons. Shireen has a bit of dragon blood in her. She has dreamed of dragons too. So far, we do not have confirmation that she is flammable.

Any of Quentin's blood relatives might make sense too, but I see no one special. Maybe his sister, but I don't think Dorne will be too pro-Dany after learning her dragons murdered Quetin (his own fault, but people are not always logical and fair in situations like this).

Well I personally think that Ben Plumm will be one of the riders. One 2 separate occasions made not of how the dragons liked Plumm and that he had Targ blood. Tyrion ultimately is his counselor that will lead him to be one of the heads of the dragon.

EDIT:

1. Point.

2. But even Mel admits she is not infallible. Or do you think Stannis is the true savior?

3. This will likely happen.

4. Mel would be my guess. Her one chapter does not count as a story arc.

I think Jon is dead but will live on as Ghost Jon. He may get a new body at some point in the story line.

The more I think about it the more I think this was a setup and I believe either one of Jon and Melisandre, and maybe both, were in on it. Let's review the letter..

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore. Your false king’s friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me. I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell. I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.

That is an awful lot of information for Ramsay to know. How did he know who Mance Rayder was? How did he even know that Rayder was supposedly executed? He's been holed up in Winterfell for some time and it isn't likely that Stannis was giving him information or the NW for that matter.

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Well I personally think that Ben Plumm will be one of the riders. One 2 separate occasions made not of how the dragons liked Plumm and that he had Targ blood. Tyrion ultimately is his counselor that will lead him to be one of the heads of the dragon.

EDIT:

The more I think about it the more I think this was a setup and I believe either one of Jon and Melisandre, and maybe both, were in on it. Let's review the letter..

That is an awful lot of information for Ramsay to know. How did he know who Mance Rayder was? How did he even know that Rayder was supposedly executed? He's been holed up in Winterfell for some time and it isn't likely that Stannis was giving him information or the NW for that matter.

Ramsey likes torture.

While not the best interrogative tool, it can make people talk.

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Not all Targaryen bastards were named Blackfyre. Brynden Rivers was Targaryen.

Actually, Brynden Rivers was Brynden Rivers. He was legitimized, but never took the name Targaryen.

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What if Borroq (the boar warg guy who is Varamyr's son) actually warged the stewards to attack Jon. If the stewards wanted to kill Jon, don't you think they would have used poison or something else so they have a chance of getting away with it?

Dany doesn't get hurt by fire, maybe Jon doesn't get hurt by something that is super cold, like a really cold knife.

I think the smoke coming from the wound (not steam) has to suggest some kind of healing. Whether it's Jon healing himself somehow to Mel doing it, I have not idea, but it's definitely significant that it was smoke and not steam. It also strongly relates to the AA being reborn thing.

Also, someone said Jon couldn't be a Targ because he got burnt, but in Dany's last chapter she had burnt hands. I think she has some kind of fire armor, but somehow it's still possible to get burnt. It was Jon's hand that was burnt too so maybe hands are more vulnerable.

I really hope we don't get an unJon. I also don't like the permanent Ghost idea. I hope he survives his knife attack, wakes dragons, and is reborn as AA, but still are real guy that isn't dead like Coldhands.

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Come on, POV characters don't die in their own POV (the exception being prologues and epilogues). We all know that.

We'll either have a healed Jon, an undead Jon or a reborn Jon. Regardless, we'll have a Jon. :)

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Maybe he'll warg into the giant. Like Bran wargs into Hodor. That would be fun. :D

I don't think Jon is "just injured". I think he's really dead. When he is first cut on the throat, he notices how it's only a scratch, but why do his fingers grow stiff and clumsy and why can't he unsheathe his sword? I think that the first cut was way worse than he thought.

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What if Borroq (the boar warg guy who is Varamyr's son) actually warged the stewards to attack Jon. If the stewards wanted to kill Jon, don't you think they would have used poison or something else so they have a chance of getting away with it?

Dany doesn't get hurt by fire, maybe Jon doesn't get hurt by something that is super cold, like a really cold knife.

I think the smoke coming from the wound (not steam) has to suggest some kind of healing. Whether it's Jon healing himself somehow to Mel doing it, I have not idea, but it's definitely significant that it was smoke and not steam. It also strongly relates to the AA being reborn thing.

Also, someone said Jon couldn't be a Targ because he got burnt, but in Dany's last chapter she had burnt hands. I think she has some kind of fire armor, but somehow it's still possible to get burnt. It was Jon's hand that was burnt too so maybe hands are more vulnerable.

I really hope we don't get an unJon. I also don't like the permanent Ghost idea. I hope he survives his knife attack, wakes dragons, and is reborn as AA, but still are real guy that isn't dead like Coldhands.

No. I'm not arguing that he is not part Targ. He could be. I just don't think he is one of the three heads.

As for the burns, Dany has been shown repeatedly to be burn proof. Whatever damage she took from Drogon, she quickly healed. Jon reacted a normal person would to a severe burn.

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I'm pretty sure he wont die, hes the only real/main PoV remaining on the wall, and seems to be to important to die right now at the very least.

We saw from the victarion chapters that the red priests have some healing powers in conjunction with their fires. I'm guessing Mel will heal him somehow with her flames. Man of all the cliff hangers in this book though, this one was by far the biggest. (dany's probably being the worst)

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