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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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GRRM foreshadowed an attempt on Jon's life several times but I still couldn't believe it when it actually happened. Given the injuries sustained Jon Snow is almost certainly dead. At a minimum I expect he'll continue to live through Ghost but more likely he'll be resurrected to become The Prince That Was Promised, the Azor Ahai.

Aside from Mel vision more or less confirming that Jon is the PTWP his actions in the book show that at least in comparison to other candidates such as Dany he is far more ready for the responsibility. Seeing the threat that Westeros (and possibly the rest of humanity) he attempts to forge an alliance between the Wildings, Giants, and Nights Watch that proves largely successful given the sheer difficulty of the task and regardless of the assassination plot. Jon forsakes his honour and vows in order to support the only King willing to help the Watch protect the realm and secure the gold required to sustain the Nights Watch through the winter.

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with danys vision of a blue flower growing in a wall of ice, the ice cells were he has kept

the dead bodies and theories of Jon dying and being revived, someone from another site has officially

declared Jon's nickname to be - Coldfeet :P

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Realistically, there's no chance that Jon is actually dead. From a story perspective, it makes absolutely no sense at all to spend so much time on his character development, set up a mystery about his parentage, pretty much come out and tell the reader that he is Azor Ahai, and then kill him. That isn't subverting a trope, that's just nuts.

And speaking of that last bit: the only reason I can see for the inclusion of the single Melisandre chapter is that vision she has. Yes, that's where we learn that Rattleshirt = Mance, but even if you hadn't figured that out by then (and there were enough clues to do so) we could have had it confirmed without the necessity of having a Mel POV. So why this one Mel chapter? Because it's essential that we see the vision from her POV. This allows the author to let us know that Jon is AA - but also shows us that Mel has the information to realise this possibility herself, if she thinks about it. And why do we need to see this? Because Mel is the one who will rescue Jon. The 'smoking' wounds confirm it, as far as I'm concerned. Jon is alive, and Mel saves him.

I do think he'll be removed from the action for some time, mind you.

On the Wall coming down, remember that the Horn of Joramun is almost certainly the horn that Sam still has - all the way down in Oldtown. So I doubt the Wall will be coming down soon.

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Assuming Jon comes back from his multiple fatal stab wounds, Jon is almost certainly not a dragon rider. He burns. As Dany's and Quentin's attempts to tame a dragon have shown, not burning is an important part.

Not burning is important when a dragon tries to burn you, yes :D

But in dragonriding? Why should it be important? What is in the books that suggests this?

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What are some of the hints of Jon coming back? ... The prophecy he sorta fulfills = smoke/salt/stars

The prophecy:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt.

It's nice that people have picked up on Ser Patrick's star being bloody, on Jon's wound smoking and on Marsh's tears but as far as I can see Jon wasn't born again. He probably just died.

So if he isn't _immediately_ raised to life again I fail to see how this version of "smoke/salt/stars" can fulfill the prophecy.

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So if he isn't _immediately_ raised to life again I fail to see how this version of "smoke/salt/stars" can fulfill the prophecy.

But Mel is a super healer. We saw what Whatshisface could do to Victarion’s arm. I guess Mel can do that.

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But Mel is a super healer. We saw what Whatshisface could do to Victarion’s arm. I guess Mel can do that.

Moqorro seems to have taken hours to heal Victarion though. It was by no means swift and required an elaborate ritual.

Granted, Melisandre might use the kiss of fire which would probably work faster but how would this work with the other clues people have found that Jon will be back again? Jon being dead for mere seconds doesn't seem to require storing his consciousness in Ghost. And what about his body possibly being preserved in the ice cells until he rises again?

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Agree about the ice cells, there is a lot of emphasis in this book on cold preserves. We see Jon touring the storerooms under the Wall rather than just hearing a report so that we can learn about the preservation spells in the Wall. Also the two dead bodies that never rise were stored in ice cells, unlike the two wights that rose in GoT that I believe were elsewhere in Castle Black. I think Jon's body is gonna be in storage for a significant period of time.

After all why would Mel even try to revive him at this point (and I believe that is how he will be resurrected). She does not (yet) believe that Jon is AA, and she has no reason to think this magic would work. No one at the Wall has ever even heard of Beric Dondarrion. The kiss of fire is basically a funeral rite that has been done thousands of times before and since, and the first time it worked Thoros was shocked. This is not a 'do A and B will' happen spell, it is a 'try A and maybe the god will do B' prayer.

On a side note, I am toying with the fancy that Jon's roving spirit will stumble across a sleeping Ice Dragon beneath the Wall. Not for any reason but that Jon (and maybe Bran too) recalled a couple of Old Nan's stories that mentioned Ice Dragons.

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Jon's death was not a shock for me, I saw it coming half way through his chapters. But I really hope that if he comes back, and I'm inclined to think he is coming back, that GRRM does not zombify him. UnJon would be the worst development I could think of.In fact, if that's my only option for Jon returning, then I would much rather he stayed dead.

That's my one requirement as well, I don't care if he is brought back through magical means that do their best to replicate a modern ICU...just no more zombie versions. Coldhands and UnCat are both very clearly dead though walking around. Jon needs to be alive in a real sense or I too would rather he stay dead.

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There are several options on him being near dead but not quite dead yet. Gut wounds can take their sweet time killing you off. He could be saved by the intervention of Wun Wun who was nearby and liked him better than most, or Bran via Wun Wun Warging (or any other means yet not revealed to us...it will be interesting to see the extent of his powers by the end), or Mel, or Wildlings, or Queensmen/Kingsmen, etc.

But more likely is that he will flat out die and they take him to a cell via the intervention of one of those groups interested in saving the body, because it seems likely the NW would burn the body.

At that time he will probably be in Ghost to allow time for nice chaos on the wall and more problem creation. At some point Mel will attempt to heal/revive him in a similar fashion to how Morqorro healed Victarion which due to the extent of the knife wounds will fill his entire body with fire and turn him black similar to Victarion's arm (looks like black armor of ice). With his body healed he can warg back into it staying relatively the same person. But at that point he has an excuse to be both more powerful and fireproof which could allow dragon handling.

As to why Mel would try to heal/revive him, it could be another of her mistakes. Stannis may die (which brings blood of kings into the equation again) and in an attempt to revive AA she brings back Jon instead. Given that she is at the Wall (hinge of the world) she should have significantly more power than any other priest we have seen heal/revive yet.

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As to why Mel would try to heal/revive him, it could be another of her mistakes. Stannis may die (which brings blood of kings into the equation again) and in an attempt to revive AA she brings back Jon instead. Given that she is at the Wall (hinge of the world) she should have significantly more power than any other priest we have seen heal/revive yet.

This. In fact, whether it's true or not, the Bolton letter makes it appear that Stannis has died. Well, if Mel continues with her stubborn use of "Azor Ahai" when scrying for him rather than saying "Stannis," her fires are going to tell her Azor Ahai is indeed dead. And when she asks the fires what to do to bring about his rebirth, that course of action will revive Jon instead of Stannis (who may or may not be dead in the first place).

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One other thing. GRRM was clearly going for shock value with the last Jon chapter. In this chapter Jon has become unequivocally the Lord Commander. Not only that but he is FINALLY acting to help restore the Stark name, albeit for the wrong girl. GRRM is clearly trying to show that Jon is taking the next step and then, BAM!, he's "killed".

Honestly I think he was going for the sheer shock value with a big anti-climax. I don't think it was really necessary but maybe he felt there weren't enough emotional shocks in the book. However I think that means it is even more likely that Jon will be back in action soon enough.

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Here is what i think happened to John Snow.

I think Mel did some glamor on him so that he looked like someone else and someone else to look like him. This means that everyone will think that he is in fact dead while in truth he is not.

This does several things:

-Mel has done this before with Mance.

-It allows Snow to be reborn fulfilling the AA reborn and 'kill the boy and let the man be born' prophecies

-It enables Jon to be relieved of his duties in the NW and allowing him to be one of the Heads of the Dragon.

-Ghost barred his teeth at John when he attempted to touch him indicating something was amiss or john wasn't really john.

-GRRM has stated that Snow chapters get Grey after this. This would explain that too.

Am i bonkers?

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I tried making a new post to cover this, but the SQL errors kept eating it.

Anyway, Jon is not dead:

I'm fairly certain Jon is not dead after a little investigating. It's possible this is just a coincidence and means nothing, but I think it means a lot.

Let me present my two pieces of evidence.

First up, the final line of Theon's last chapter in ACoK:

Now, Catelyn's final chapter in ASoS:

And finally, Jon's final two lines from his last chapter in ADwD:

Catelyn is Dead-dead (until Beric resurrects her) when her chapter ends. Theon is not, though many believed he was til ASoS. His chapter ends with the ellipsis, same as Jon.

It might just be a coincidence, but I firmly believe that if Jon had died, the sentence would have ended in a period.

Did Brienne's last chapter in AFFC end in an ellipsis too (when she was hanged)? For some reason I think that it did, but I don't have the book with me to check right now. If it did, I think that you are really onto something. Hard to believe it could be that obvious.

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So if he isn't _immediately_ raised to life again I fail to see how this version of "smoke/salt/stars" can fulfill the prophecy.

We can see it this way. There is a scarce of food on the Wall. Stewards probably will try to bake a Jon pie. Just add some salt and put a "pie" on the fire. Azor Ahai is served and born "amidst salt and smoke". Can you imagine stewards faces when Azor Ahai will appear from a smoke as Dany did with just one word "Surprise!" Dolores Edd was right, don't trust a cook.

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Did Brienne's last chapter in AFFC end in an ellipsis too (when she was hanged)? For some reason I think that it did, but I don't have the book with me to check right now. If it did, I think that you are really onto something. Hard to believe it could be that obvious.

Nope....

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much. She screamed a word.

But it certainly didn't seem to give much room for survival.

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On the Wall coming down, remember that the Horn of Joramun is almost certainly the horn that Sam still has - all the way down in Oldtown. So I doubt the Wall will be coming down soon.

I thought Sam sold it because he didn't have any money?

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