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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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Martin said that Jon was going to become a "greyer character", and right now we haven't see it. 'Grey' means 'I'm super honorable and righteous and I'm going to sacrifice myself just to keep others at bay and not stain their own honors'? I don't see it. Grey is grey, not white with a tiny spot that only you can see :shocked: So... he MUST be back :bawl:

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'Eeee's not dead, look at 'im, 'e's just restin'...beautiful plumage.

E's just tired and shagged out after a long squawk.

Well I'm glad it's over, because now I can go back to Mass Effect 2.

Hopefully only 3 years at most to get an answer to this cliffhanger.

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Martin said that Jon was going to become a "greyer character", and right now we haven't see it.

I think we have seen it. Blackmailing poor Gilly wasn't exactly the height of honor.

Killing off Jon would be a brave and interesting thing to do. But it seems unlikely.

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Martin said that Jon was going to become a "greyer character", and right now we haven't see it. 'Grey' means 'I'm super honorable and righteous and I'm going to sacrifice myself just to keep others at bay and not stain their own honors'? I don't see it. Grey is grey, not white with a tiny spot that only you can see :shocked: So... he MUST be back :bawl:

I haven't seen it either. I wish I did. I remember people thinking Melisandre would corrupt him or that they would start boinking which would lead to all kinds of grey-ness. Nope. He's super Jon and sees right through her, except when the old "get rid of your super protective Direwolf" rears its head again.

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As to the oath, from my reading of it. It's quite flexible. To protect the realms of man is pretty vague on what they need protecting from. Maybe protecting man from themselves could be a vaild argument.

There can be no doubt that Ramsey Bolton is pretty frigging Evil. An people are going to need protecting from him. I'd say at the moment on a scale of nasty he's right up there with the others.

I think it's pretty obvious that Jon is going to remain in the story, as what I am not so sure. I hope it's as a regular person not some good zombie, or wolf man thingie.

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Well I think Jon will be back in some form, maybe as AA reborn or as a part of Ghost. But I believe that GRRM did "killed" him to make the Night's Watch fail, maybe in a form of battle between the free folk and the Night's Watch or a spell that fails, thus realizing the white wakers/the others on the realms. Then winter finally have reached Westeros, indicated by the white raven in the epilogue.

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I think it's pretty obvious that Jon is going to remain in the story, as what I am not so sure. I hope it's as a regular person not some good zombie, or wolf man thingie.

May R'hllor hear you :bowdown: I don't want a " :stillsick: brainsssss!" Jon, nor a "wuf-wuf-look,moon-hungry-night-meat-run-wuf-wuf" Jon :ack: This would seriously suck. Jon is Jon, period. Not a body (hairy or dead or whatever) with no wits. This would be as pointless as him dead-dead :tantrum:

Well I think Jon will be back in some form, maybe as AA reborn or as a part of Ghost. But I believe that GRRM did "killed" him to make the Night's Watch fail, maybe in a form of battle between the free folk and the Night's Watch or a spell that fails, thus realizing the white wakers/the others on the realms. Then winter finally have reached Westeros, indicated by the white raven in the epilogue.

:agree: With him, it could be very difficult for the Others to invade the 'Realms of Men' or, more to the point, for Jon to survive while they do it. Just like that, he can be "on vacation" in the meanwhile, and just return later? Please? :bawl:

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I think Jon is AA. Not sure if AA and PTWP are the same yet though.

I think Jon will definitely live/be reborn, as someone points out-- he has plot armor.

I think Jon will lead the wildlings to free Mance, I think Mance will be the new Lord Commander. After all it's what Mance wanted in the first place and knows the wild/others better than even Jon.

Not sure if Stannis is or isn't dead and if that was all bait or not. I'm thinking it was true. I think Jon will claim Lightbringer, thus further fulfilling the prophecy. I'm also not sure what will ultimately happen when Jon/Dany plots meet. I still want Jaime and Jon to have one more encounter after their last it would be a complete reversal.

A few other points, Davos is going to find Bran and somehow this will reunite Bran/Jon. Davos is the Han Solo character and I think Jon is the Luke character (he has the force, warrior, raised without his true parents, etc).

I think Jon will ride Viserion. Viserion is white, like ghost, and like Jon's father's hair. Ghost was the runt and Jon never goes for the biggest weapon. It would just fit.

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Martin said that Jon was going to become a "greyer character", and right now we haven't see it. 'Grey' means 'I'm super honorable and righteous and I'm going to sacrifice myself just to keep others at bay and not stain their own honors'? I don't see it. Grey is grey, not white with a tiny spot that only you can see :shocked: So... he MUST be back :bawl:

He's grey, just a lighter shade. Would you rather have him forget his preparations for the Long Night? Would you rather him try and win glory in the NW? His head is down, focused "on the work," and there are many real people in this world who do what needs to be done to survive. Real people do a myriad of unsexy things every single day, running our government, protecting their families, bringing home a paycheck, and getting the thankless work done. Jon's greyness comes from him being downright realistic and utterly mundane.

Plus keep in mind Martin always uses the 3rd person limited POV - Jon could be an unreliable narrator who convinces himself that he's doing the right thing. Clearly he makes mistakes of his own doing in this book. Deep down he's making a decision to no longer deny the love for his family anymore. He never tells his Brothers this. His leadership style is too radical, and while the readers might love it and interpret it as the height of honor, I can easily see Marsh's reasoning, shortsighted as it is.

Methinks Jon is the new Mance Raydar. These two need to meet up again and have a long chat, this time without coming to blows.

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He's grey, just a lighter shade. Would you rather have him forget his preparations for the Long Night? Would you rather him try and win glory in the NW? His head is down, focused "on the work," and there are many real people in this world who do what needs to be done to survive. Real people do a myriad of unsexy things every single day, running our government, protecting their families, bringing home a paycheck, and getting the thankless work done. Jon's greyness comes from him being downright realistic and utterly mundane.

But he was this way earlier in the series. He was like that when he said "no" to Gilly in CoK, when he killed Ygritte's companion, when he killed Qorin, when he followed the wildlings and tried to convince them that he had become one of them, when he climbed the Wall, when he escaped. He was like that when he leaded the defense of Castle Black from the two attacks, south and north, or when he agreed to kill Mance and instead knew he was about to be killed. He was the "this must be done, so let's do it" kind of person. Obviously, as the Lord Commander his decisions have more weight than those he made when he was a simple guard, but the person making those decisions is the same, not a greyer one, just a more 'important' one :huh:

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Killing off Jon would be a brave and interesting thing to do. But it seems unlikely.

Killing off Jon in a way that is organically built up throughout the text and advances the plot (a la the Red Wedding, Ned, Drogo, the old Bear) would be very brave and interesting. Killing him like this would be flipping the bird to the readers just to show you can. (Plot armor? I'll show you plot armor bitches!)

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I think Jon is AA. Not sure if AA and PTWP are the same yet though.

I think Jon will definitely live/be reborn, as someone points out-- he has plot armor.

I think Jon will lead the wildlings to free Mance, I think Mance will be the new Lord Commander. After all it's what Mance wanted in the first place and knows the wild/others better than even Jon.

Not sure if Stannis is or isn't dead and if that was all bait or not. I'm thinking it was true. I think Jon will claim Lightbringer, thus further fulfilling the prophecy. I'm also not sure what will ultimately happen when Jon/Dany plots meet. I still want Jaime and Jon to have one more encounter after their last it would be a complete reversal.

A few other points, Davos is going to find Bran and somehow this will reunite Bran/Jon. Davos is the Han Solo character and I think Jon is the Luke character (he has the force, warrior, raised without his true parents, etc).

I think Jon will ride Viserion. Viserion is white, like ghost, and like Jon's father's hair. Ghost was the runt and Jon never goes for the biggest weapon. It would just fit.

I agree with many of the opinions on this thread (not all obviously) but this one quoted above more than most.

GRRM has obviously been setting Jon up as AA, and in this book even more. The Warg in the beginning also gave clues. I did not realize that Jon would have to actually die to be AA Reborn but now it seems obvious.

Thinking about it - Jon was born a Stark. Now that he has died will he learn that he is a Targ as well? i.e. Reborn as a Targ and AA. Will that include white hair?

I think that his body will spend time in the cold cells, but it will not suffer degeneration like Cat did, and hi will live in Ghost for a while. Hopefully finally communicate with Bran a little. Then Mel will give him the final kiss before his body is burned and he will not jump up immediately like Beric did. It will take time for his sprit to be called back from Ghost. They willl light the fire and he will walk out of the fire a full Targ. (Old hair burned off?)

Edited to add: If he is burned with Longclaw - maybe it will be changed as well?

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I don't think Jon is "just injured". I think he's really dead. When he is first cut on the throat, he notices how it's only a scratch, but why do his fingers grow stiff and clumsy and why can't he unsheathe his sword? I think that the first cut was way worse than he thought.

This hasn't gotten enough attention IMO:

When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so __it barely grazed his skin__. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”

...<snip>... Jon reached for Longclaw, but __his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy__. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

So, just barely grazing his skin shouldn't be enough to make his fingers stiff & clumsy.

  • Maybe (as dreamcatcher suggests) the cut was deeper than Jon realized. I don't think blood would just "well between his fingers" if Wick had cut an artery though.
  • Maybe the dagger was poisoned? I don't think poison would have had enough time to work though.
  • Maybe Melisandre began to work some kind of fire magic on him as he was being attacked? That could explain the smoking wound (assuming the "smoke" wasn't just his warm blood steaming in the cold air).

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I agree with many of the opinions on this thread (not all obviously) but this one quoted above more than most.

GRRM has obviously been setting Jon up as AA, and in this book even more. The Warg in the beginning also gave clues. I did not realize that Jon would have to actually die to be AA Reborn but now it seems obvious.

Thinking about it - Jon was born a Stark. Now that he has died will he learn that he is a Targ as well? i.e. Reborn as a Targ and AA. Will that include white hair?

I think that his body will spend time in the cold cells, but it will not suffer degeneration like Cat did, and hi will live in Ghost for a while. Hopefully finally communicate with Bran a little. Then Mel will give him the final kiss before his body is burned and he will not jump up immediately like Beric did. It will take time for his sprit to be called back from Ghost. They willl light the fire and he will walk out of the fire a full Targ. (Old hair burned off?)

Edited to add: If he is burned with Longclaw - maybe it will be changed as well?

So basically Jon will become Fitz and do exactly what Hobb did in a book already. Sounds very new and exciting..

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[*] Maybe Melisandre began to work some kind of fire magic on him as he was being attacked? That could explain the smoking wound (assuming the "smoke" wasn't just his warm blood steaming in the cold air).

Good thinking about everything, but about the smoke... here's another bone to chew on:

"Some were rushing toward the dragon, spears in hand. Others were rushing away, throwing down their weapons as they fled. The hero was jerking on the sand, the bright blood pouring from the ragged stump of his shoulder. His spear remained in Drogon’s back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound."

and

"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

This could be anything, Melisandre's magic, condensation, or Jon having dragon blood.

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I'm not sure why so many people are convinced that Jon is done as the NW commander and NW in general. Is it just because we'd like him to be freed up to meet with Dany? Do we want a 999th commander of the Wall because numerically that's cooler?

I mean, he intended to break his vows, sure, but he never actually did. If intent to break vows was an automatic death or dismissal, then Jon would have been dead in GoT. Instead of his friend's bringing him back this time, it was his brother's daggers that kept him from leaving.

If he survives, depending on who's left in the NW (cuz I'm thinking there's going to be a bit of bloodshed Brutus Marsh might be suffering from a case of sword in the bowels), couldn't he just resume command?

Of course, there's the possibility that Marsh planned this much better than just a stabbing. Its possible that the NW was ready to Red Wedding all the wildlings after Jon was stabbed. (though that would be a gross hospitality breach)

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