[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate

[Total Depravity]

I see a lot of posts about how coming from the dead is overused and I actually want to take issue with this. Cases like Brienne and Davos examples are fakeouts, cliffhangers, cases of outright (in-universe) deception or rumours and don't count as coming back from the dead. The Mountain was dying and whether Qyburn's methods involved sorcery, alchemy or advanced anatomy we don't know that Gregor ever actually died. The wights are just animated corpses. By my count that leaves Coldhands (another corpse - though one with the original sentience intact), Beric and Catelyn (who would seem alive if they needed sleep or food). Jon would make four. Is that really so many for a fantasy serious where one of the big themes is the return of magic?

This. Fake outs are very very different than resurrections.

Another possibility is the "smoking wounds"-- possibly Melisandre uses magic to avert his death rather than cause it

The text indicates that it is because of the cold. In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

i thought the prologues basically tells us that he's going to warg

I think Mel's vision is the stronger evidence.

I don't believe the last line about him not feeling the 4th blow would even be in there if he died...

I thought the greatest hint that he did not die was that line as well. I figured he had either warged into Wun Wun (who would be able to actually see the event), or a crow (who would be able to see the event) or was in the processing of warging into Ghost (who could not see the event) and as he was warging he was still in character and in POV. It is possible GRRM did not break POV in that chapter at all. Jon was warging (i.e. out of body) or had warged into something that could still see his corpse. Obviously, the strongest case is for Ghost. But I am unsure if warging would allow him to still see himself as he was leaving, etc. Someone should reread all the warging passages and come up with a theory.

I think that Jon died and his soul and mind are now in Ghost's body. It's becoming the wolf from Mel's vision. To bring him back to real life Mel will have to bind his soul back to his body, but his soul and Ghost's are now the same. So Ghost's body will die, but Jon will live and Ghost will live in him. Jon with red weirwood eyes and wolf's instinct would be badass.

It's just my crazy imagination, but I don't find it impossible

This is what I am leaning towards. You aren't alone. The following question was asked way back when we heard that Jon's character would be changing: What if Jon's "greying of character" is attributed to Ghost inhabiting his body with him instead of just becoming amoral? So it would still be Jon. Albeit a more "dire-wolfy" version. Reminds me of the "hardening" of Rand in WoT.

That is an awful lot of information for Ramsay to know. How did he know who Mance Rayder was? How did he even know that Rayder was supposedly executed? He's been holed up in Winterfell for some time and it isn't likely that Stannis was giving him information or the NW for that matter.

Because Mance wrote it! Or so some say...

So if he isn't _immediately_ raised to life again I fail to see how this version of "smoke/salt/stars" can fulfill the prophecy.

Nothing in the prophecy tells you about the timing, and Mel has said over and over again that reading them literally isn't always helpful. There could be large gaps in time between them or none at all. A strictly literal reading would mean that Jon wakes up immediately, but that is not the only possible rendering. But it would also require a bag of salt to be poured around him as well a smoldering fire nearby. The key word is "amidst"(which is not a temporal word at all).

I'm not sure why so many people are convinced that Jon is done as the NW commander and NW in general.

This. I thought AA was intended to fight the true battle - against the Others, not rule Westeros. There is no better place for that than the North / Night's Watch. I always thought that him going South after Bolton seemed far fetched.

[freshandclean]

Personally, I'm kind of over the whole "magical resurrection" aspect. Warging into Ghost and then having his body revived supernaturally is a bit obtuse, IMO. If Jon had to be AA, I kind of hoped he would have achieved it more mundanely. That he fulfills the prophesy, not through magic, but through his own skills. That's probably too much to ask for.

[rhaze]

fake-outs are becoming even more overused.

[Dragons Dancing]

IMO, Seems kind of early in the story for Jon to becomme AA. Seems like he is the one for AA but who knows.

I think he wargs into Ghost and his body (not dead) is revived by Mel. I'm trying to visualize him with no mind/soul. Coma like perhaps.

I kind of like the idea that when he finally wargs back into his body, Ghost's soul goes with him making him grey. But, I like Ghost and he has saved Jon's butt many times. How mentally confusing to have Jon's thoughts and Ghost's in the same brain. Jon would be eating a lot of raw meat, perhaps even human meat.

We have Rickon possibly on Skagos with the cannibals possibly eating human meat, Bran in the weirwood enjoying Summers human meat eating, and maybe now Jon eating human meat. Freaky indeed.

[Ygritte]

Personally, I'm kind of over the whole "magical resurrection" aspect. Warging into Ghost and then having his body revived supernaturally is a bit obtuse, IMO. If Jon had to be AA, I kind of hoped he would have achieved it more mundanely. That he fulfills the prophesy, not through magic, but through his own skills. That's probably too much to ask for.

Well, to start with, let's say Ghost saves his life...well, that couldn't happen if Jon hadn't saved Ghost's life in the first place, way back at the beginning of AGoT. (Off topic, that's a large part of why I always liked the guy. I'm a sucker for canines, and he started off the books by arguing for the rescue of the pups, including the outcast "flawed" one.)

You can go even farther to things like "he wouldn't even be at the Wall if he hadn't chosen to stay all those times he was tempted" or "he wouldn't be getting stabbed if he hadn't tried to change the Watch," if you want, but those are more of a stretch. But in addition to that, I don't think he's going to have a cakewalk even after getting resurrected. He's going to have all sorts of fighting to do and hard decisions to make.

[Knight of Ashes]

You can go even farther to things like "he wouldn't even be at the Wall if he hadn't chosen to stay all those times he was tempted" or "he wouldn't be getting stabbed if he hadn't tried to change the Watch," if you want, but those are more of a stretch. But in addition to that, I don't think he's going to have a cakewalk even after getting resurrected. He's going to have all sorts of fighting to do and hard decisions to make.

And then every decision he makes regardless is gonna bite him in the ass in as devastating a way as possible. :tantrum:

[Stinky Steward]

I think prophecies are wind, and that Martin is playing a bit with the readers who bend over backwards to fit them perfectly. I honestly hope that even if someone ends up performing deeds worthy of AA or PTWP, it will never be completely sure whether the prophecy is fulfilled or not.

Jon is probably not dead, if for no other reason then because the death (1) comes at the end of the book and (2) is not described as definite. Who/what he will be when he recovers/ is revived, no idea. I have a hunch that it will fall between the following constraints: (1) Jon won't be completely undead, he'll still be himself enough to be human, perhaps even to still have a POV, and (2) he'll have been dead enough for the Night Watch to consider his vows fulfilled and eject him, although I expect he'll resist this. Alternatively NW will cease to exist in short order, either because the free folk who now vastly outnumber them will take control, or because the Others will find a way to tear down the Wall.

As for Ramsay's letter, I don't see Mance writing it for a simple reason: why would he do it? I guess to draw Jon from the Wall so the free folk could take over. But the letter sounds too much like Ramsay, and moreover it's way too feverish to come from the psychopath after he had just won a major battle and feels in control. I think whoever said Ramsay and Stannis were stalemated probably had it right. The information in the letter could all have been gained from torturing a single captured spearwife, assuming a spearwife would talk, or even from Mance taunting the Boltons from the outside while they were trapped in Winterfell.

[dreamcatcher]

The text indicates that it is because of the cold. In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

Not really. The sentence indicates that it was cold, it was night-time, and the wound was smoking. It does not say "Because of the cold night air the wound was smoking." I think this is intentional, because George is messing with us. Do you think he forgot that he made Drogon's wounds smoke a couple of chapters before Jon was killed? :)

[The Non-Human]

Its possible that the NW was ready to Red Wedding all the wildlings after Jon was stabbed. (though that would be a gross hospitality breach)

There are more wildlings than there are brothers, or at least brothers actually capable of defending themselves. If they attempt to do anything in that manner, I predict they are going to be eviscerated to the last.

Then again, they might well be anyway.

As for the Smoking Wound, has anyone stopped to consider that it might be "smoking" for the same reason one gets misty breath when its very cold? Only instead of being hot air, its hot blood. Does not mean the prophecy is invalidated, but still thats the first thing that sprang to mind.

[dreamcatcher]

As for the Smoking Wound, has anyone stopped to consider that it might be "smoking" for the same reason one gets misty breath when its very cold? Only instead of being hot air, its hot blood. Does not mean the prophecy is invalidated, but still thats the first thing that sprang to mind.

Actually we have all considered it, haven't you been reading? :)

But blood isn't hot, I mean it's the same temperature as body, and we don't smoke when we get outside and it's freezing? :unsure: Or is this a matter of chemistry (which I know nothing about).

[Aelinor]

Actually we have all considered it, haven't you been reading? :)

But blood isn't hot, I mean it's the same temperature as body, and we don't smoke when we get outside and it's freezing? :unsure: Or is this a matter of chemistry (which I know nothing about).

People aren't wet :laugh: It's a matter of moisture (steam, as referenced in GoT when Royce is stabbed by an Other)

[Rindill]

Am I the only one who sees the connection between Jon's burnt arm and Victarions's "magically" burnt arm?

[Markus]

Nothing in the prophecy tells you about the timing, and Mel has said over and over again that reading them literally isn't always helpful. There could be large gaps in time between them or none at all. A strictly literal reading would mean that Jon wakes up immediately, but that is not the only possible rendering. But it would also require a bag of salt to be poured around him as well a smoldering fire nearby. The key word is "amidst"(which is not a temporal word at all).

I think it would be extremely silly if the prophecy could be fulfilled by somebody being born again where some smoke and salt were sometime in the recent or even distant past. I think there is a more than sensible expectation that whenever Azor Ahai is or has been reborn it should be amidst smoke and salt when the rebirth takes place.

Which means that if Jon isn't reborn immediately that all the smoke, salt and stars we saw at his probable death meant nothing as far as being Azor Ahai is concerned. Jon may become Azor Ahai if Melisandre's vision of him should be interpreted that way but the circumstances of his death don't really lend themselves to him being Azor Ahai if they're only connected to his death and not his rebirth.

[Ellroy]

Yesterday I re-read the prologue.

Wargs don't die so easily. Haggon states that a Warg has 12 lives before passing to his second life. Varamyr lists all the deaths he has survived and they all seem pretty... deadly, you know. Not bad injuries but serious stuff, just like Jon being stabbed a lot of times.

So, I believe that Jon will survive the injuries like Varamyr simply because he is a powerfull Warg. Then, we should see how the whole thing works and what narrative consequences it will bring.

[Markus]

Varamyr survived the deaths of his bonded animals. Even wargs only suffer one true death of their own body, however.

[Kirazi]

Beric's revival and his apparent liveliness was a function of how long he had been dead before he was revived. This seems to me to be a sort of "brain cell death" function of how it is with the undead. With Catelyn, she had been dead for three days and her trauma and decay was severe. Stoneheart is clearly NOT Catelyn Stark nee Tully.

With Benjen (assuming it is), he would have died north of the Wall and been revived soon thereafter, so I don't think his brain would have had much time to decay. Though it seems that some wights decay faster than others.

In the case of all three of these who return from the grave, it is very clear that they are NOT alive. They are undead. They do not eat, they do not drink, sleep, breathe or heal. They are animated, yes, but they are NOT alive.

With Jon, we have the ice cells and the whole "preservation" spell effect wrapped into the structure of the Wall at work, together with the unique case of being a warg whose consciousness/soul is transferred to his wolf. Unlike the other corpses who return from the grave, Jon's "soul" is nearby and can be rejoined. (As Drogo's could not be). I think GRRM will leave Jon in the cells for a lot longer than many of us will prefer. Probably just to freak us out a little and start to worry whether he'll stay dead!

BTW, it's not that death has lost its meaning in the series. It's that there are certain things you can't do with your main characters and be believed as part of your overall plot structure. And in all honesty, GRRM didn't WANT to be believed about killing Jon. That's why he puts so many clues in the novel that Jon's consciousness as a warg will go to Ghost, why he leaves Mel behind at the wall, why the ice cells are shown to us constantly, and why he lets us see inside Mel's head which shows Jon Snow as Azor Ahai.

GRRM isn't stupid. You can kill Ned as a shock -- and it certainly was. If there is any doubt of that, think back to the reaction of those who watched "Baelor" for the first time, not knowing what would happen. With the Red Wedding, it was definitely another throw the book across the room moment. I was entirely pissed when I read Jon's last chapter and I DID shout "NOOOOOO....BASTARD!!" as I was reading it. I was in a rage but would not come to this message board until I was done the last chapters first (and then I flew through them to come read here).

But it was pretty clear to me that Jon wasn't going to die because of all the clues GRRM had left. Which is good. Jon's my favorite character in the series and if GRRM actually perma-killed Jon in book five with at least two more to go? I might just stop reading and get off this goddamned train. And I'm not simply a fan of these books -- like many here, it's become a hobby.

And George knows that attachment to Jon amongst his readership. He is the only main character who has followed what is close to the traditional "hero's journey" in the series. Jon's the bastard the likaeble underdog. He's the one who is groomed for command, saves the Lord Commander from the wight, wins the magic sword, ventures beyond the wall, becomes part of Mance's court, saves Castle Black, saves the Realm and becomes Lord Commander. If there is a fantasy action hero in ASoIaF - Jon Snow is clearly that character in a way that Ned Stark never was.

So that's why GRRM left the clues in the novel so that we wouldn't freak the fuck out and go forth on the internet and in our local bookstores, warning everybody and their dog to not read the series (when we had before been the ones most likely to recommend it). GRRM has been planning this scene for a while. It wasn't a surprise road stop en route to L.A. from NYC: "Oh. You know, I could just kill Jon Snow here. Wouldn't that be a kick in the balls to readers? Yeah, let's do that."

No. it's not like that at all. I also don't think that Jon will come back as any shade or anything less than a human. He will not be some undead thing. He'll come back for real, the only one who does in the series.

*crosses fingers*

If not, I say a few million of us ride out in a sortie and strip GRRM of all his lands and titles and teach him why you don't kill off your hero with two books to go. :)

I concur and see this being the most true.

[Kaitscralt]

I agree with those saying that Jon is not dead. He will not need to warg his life into something else, and he will not be revived.

For all we know, the kiss of life might have been unique to Thoros (and then transferred to Beric, and then to Catelyn). It was a funeral rite, a tradition, that happened to revive Beric because of the new magic in the world. It is not some revival-spell that all red priests know about.

Things at the Wall are chaotic right now. I am not sure Melisandre would even have time to give Jon a proper red priest send-off. They are not alone in the woods like Thoros and Beric were and she does not seem as traditional and sentimental (she burns people alive on a regular basis). And if she did decide to give Jon the kiss of life, it would either not work since it is Thoros' gift, or it would work and we'd have yet another red priest accidentally reviving someone when all they wanted to do was see them off to the red god (I think another 'oops, revival' moment would be stupid.)

The final option I suppose is that Mel does know about the kiss working differently now, but unless she sees Thoros in her fires then I don't envision this being true.

[GreyJackal]

The only thing that bothers me about Jon not being dead is the throat slice. Is his throat cut was really just a graze then cool, maybe he has a shot. But if it is deeper than he thought then I dunno.

The stiff and clumsy hand bothers me as well. Did Mel keep him from drawing his sword or was it weakness or shock ?

[howland_reed]

Not sure if it was discussed already in this thread, but what of the fact that Jon couldn't draw Longclaw for some mysterious reason after he got nicked. We know Jon has the capabilities of defending himself 3 on 1, even 4 on 1, and he's facing a bunch of stewards/cooks, not rangers.

The fact that he couldn't draw Longclaw doesn't seem like some plot convenience (GRRM is better than that), but that something magical or other is preventing Jon from drawing his weapon.

[Faint]

The more I think about it, the reason he never felt that fourth knife is because he had already warged into Ghost at that point. It's so obvious I don't know why I didn't think that as I was reading the scene.