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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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I agree. I think it is a possibility that he survives and GRRM will certainly use him to continue the plot line. I just think it is too early for Jon to turn into a wolf, or AA, or a frozen mummy with a fire sword. The dragons aren't even in Westeros yet. I can see how he might be transformed in the final book but what the heck is he going to do during the next book while other characters including the Others get into their places for the grand finale?

Cold-hands. Benjen reunited with a similarly wighted Jon.\

We already know that Greenseer's might be able to raise the dead.

Benjen remarked to Bran "NOT to call back the dead". Ominous?

What if Bran restores Jon's body to wightlife, and Jon (as a warg) inhabits it.

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I think he's dead and they're going to burn his body, as they do with all the dead. Only he's going to climb out of the fire with Longclaw on fire and glowing all AA-ish.

'nah. Bowen Marsh is AAR. He was in love with Jon. The only reason he stabbed him was because Jon had spurned all his advances, and despite his initial claims to never have had sex... with a woman, Jon appeared to be straight as an arrow. When Mel looked for news of AA she saw Jon surrounded by daggers, because plunging a dagger into Jon's heart was the next step in fulfilling the prophecy.

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GRRM has never shied away from killing fan favorites. Jon is as dead as dead. Having Mel on the wall and giving her a POV was so that the aftereffects of the Lord Commanders assasination can be viewed. Jon had been one of my favorite characters throughout the series but during this book he refused to listen to the council of those around him, and thats what usually gets you killed.. Ned Stark, Viserys, Quentyn Martell.

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1. Jon survives by warging into Ghost: I don't think Jon lives on via Ghost. I believe it was Bran who was told that wargs who chose to stay in their animal host slowly faded away until very little trace is left. To take this fork in the road would have some major limitations on Jon's future role in plot.

2. Smoking wound: I can assure you a wound to the abdomen could smoke in cold weather. Take a bucket of hot tap water outside when the temps are hovering at 20 degrees and see what happens. It will smoke (water vapor.) Extrapolate that on a puncture of an abdomen, a puncture of a series of moist membranes which releases blood and other bodily fluids into contact with cold air. "Smoke" would be certain. The more problematic part is not the question of "would the wound smoke" but "could the smoke clear the clothing?" This attack happened in cold weather when everyone was wearing layers of clothing, to include heavy overcloaks of animal skins. This would significantly delay the contact of bodily fluids with cold air, depending on what Jon was wearing.

Jon having dragon blood is an infinitely more sexy explanation, but it is not the only explanation.

3. Unable to draw Longclaw: Longclaw is a bastard sword, longer than a longsword. We're talking a weapon with an overall length approaching four feet. This is not an easy weapon to draw in the best of circumstances, certainly not something easily whipped out in close quarters, and if four people get close enough to you to stab you with a dagger, you are at close quarter battle. Drawing a long sword when four people are within arms reach of you is going to be a problem, as one or more of them will have one hand on you somewhere trying to hold you still whilst they stab you with the other.

4. Survive/resurrect: Jon's wounds are fatal without treatment. Who better to treat such a wound than Melissandre? Agree with early comment that resurrection has not been overused. We are only 5 installments and ca 4000 pages into the story. If resurrection can happen, it is arguably surprising that it hasn't happened more often. Moreover, the resurrections south of the wall are all attributable to R'hllor, so Mel's resurrection of Jon would be entirely consistent with the storyline thus far.

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GRRM has never shied away from killing fan favorites. Jon is as dead as dead. Having Mel on the wall and giving her a POV was so that the aftereffects of the Lord Commanders assasination can be viewed. Jon had been one of my favorite characters throughout the series but during this book he refused to listen to the council of those around him, and thats what usually gets you killed.. Ned Stark, Viserys, Quentyn Martell.

We know Jon isn't dead dead. He'll inhabit Ghost at the very least.

If GRRM opens TWOW with the death of Ghost...

Ashara Dayne had purple eyes (a sign of Targaryen blood). Jon may have been Ashara's son.

Jon has dragon's blood?

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Why is everyone overlooking the Warthog warg?

We know that wargs can...

1. Take over any animal they want.

2. Try to take over humans.

Jon gave the other warg as the reason Ghost was restless, but Greywind also was restless before the Red Wedding.

That warg could have...

1. Taken over Wun Wun

2. Attempted to control Jon as he was being stabbed (unable to get Longclaw out)

3. Taken over various of the Night's Watch (causing them to stab John) - as his first assailant seemed taken aback after Jon disarmed him.

Jon forsaking his vows and Ramsay's defeating Stannis simply put the nail in the coffin for Jon.

From what we saw in Varamyr's prologue, when someone wargs into you, you feel quite distinctly. It seems to be highly unpleasant, or at least more than simple loss of control. Remember the woman screaming in agony and seemingly going mad?

To me, Jon was unable to get Longclaw out because of bloodloss. The first cut slashed at his neck/throat.

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My theory

Jon will be reborn as AA

Dany is the PTWP

Bran is the Last Hero

those are your 3 dragon riders

Dany totally fire

Bran totally ice

Jon ice and fire

What/Who are "PTWP" and the "Last Hero?"

Agree with your riders, except that Bran (the greenseer who will ride the green Rhaegel) and Jon (who will ride the white Viserion) will enter their dragons as skinchangers, not as riders.

But how can Jon be Ahor Azai when he lacks Lightbringer? That tends to favor Dany as AA, since the dragons collectively might be Lightbringer. Plus, Dany rides Drogon, the largest and meanest -- if she is the Mother of Dragons, Drogon is the Stallion that Mounts the World, which is why Dany will once again lead her khalasar.

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GRRM has never shied away from killing fan favorites. Jon is as dead as dead. Having Mel on the wall and giving her a POV was so that the aftereffects of the Lord Commanders assasination can be viewed. Jon had been one of my favorite characters throughout the series but during this book he refused to listen to the council of those around him, and thats what usually gets you killed.. Ned Stark, Viserys, Quentyn Martell.

I think GRRM has all but said that Jon is still alive in one form or another in interviews.

After the Red Weddings, GRRM wasn't all "Ooooh, but is Robb really dead?!"

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Isn't Wun Wun, who just ripped the head off Ser Patrek, near Jon?

Also, no mention of any blood, but rather smoking wounds...makes you wonder if Melisandre protected him with some type of shadow spell. I'm sure glamour and shadow babies aren't the only tricks up her sleeves.

Speaking of Shadow Babies... wasn't Milisandre pretty anxious to get Jon to father one? Maybe she faked the letter and set up the whole attack so she could gain Jon's trust when she "saves" him.

Just a thought.

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To me, Jon was unable to get Longclaw out because of bloodloss. The first cut slashed at his neck/throat.

When I re-read that passage, I got the feeling that the first cut had poisoned him. His fingers became stiff and clumsy...makes me think that some drug was taking affect.

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Did he? I can't recall any.

Did you mean this seriously? I liked Ned, Catelyn, Aemon, Luwin & Red Viper and a lot of other people did, they're all "fan favorites" and they're all dead. I'm certain some people loved characters like Robb, Renly, Drogo & Kevan and there must be others whose faves are the dead psychos like Balon, Tywin, Joffrey & The Goat.

You are in a minority that is all but nonexistant.

So what? I agree with you that Jon's probably not dead dead, but that's no reason to pick on people who think he is, however small a minority they are. They may yet be right.

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Yeah but then you also have to explain why the 4+ men that were close enough for knives and intent on killing him just stopped and thought, "well i suppose he's learned his lesson..." Unless someone comes to his rescue which i don't really see as realistic considering how quick it happens.

My guess is that people stabbing Jon have a life expectancy of about 1 minute, seeing that they're doing it in front of a lot of free folk who support him. It's totally plausible that these 4 or so stabs are the only ones, and as people said before, the stabbers are mostly stewards who are not necessarily the most skillful knife wielders.

That said, someone else brought up another important point: Jon "just" recovering doesn't really advance the plot. It has to be at least a near-death experience. How close to or how far into death it'll go, and the mode of recovery/reanimation is of course anyone's guess :)

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3. Unable to draw Longclaw: Longclaw is a bastard sword, longer than a longsword. We're talking a weapon with an overall length approaching four feet. This is not an easy weapon to draw in the best of circumstances, certainly not something easily whipped out in close quarters, and if four people get close enough to you to stab you with a dagger, you are at close quarter battle. Drawing a long sword when four people are within arms reach of you is going to be a problem, as one or more of them will have one hand on you somewhere trying to hold you still whilst they stab you with the other.

I think it's more than that.

Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

The key words are "his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy". Why would his fingers do that, if the first knife had only grazed his skin? If anything, he'd be more agile because of the adrenaline.

As people here suggest - 1. it may be that the wound was deeper than Jon thought, 2. that the blade was poisoned, or 3. that there was some Melisandre-magic about, trying to save him.

Another word is "somehow". Jon is an experienced swordsman, I think he would have known why he wasn't able to pull his sword out (if it was just for the lack of space).

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Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

The key words are "his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy". Why would his fingers do that, if the first knife had only grazed his skin? If anything, he'd be more agile because of the adrenaline.

As people here suggest - 1. it may be that the wound was deeper than Jon thought, 2. that the blade was poisoned, or 3. that there was some Melisandre-magic about, trying to save him.

I agree there's something fishy going on here but if it's magic, why do you think it's benign? Jon may well be able to fight off several dagger-armed stewards with Longclaw, so if Mel would tried to help him, why would she hinder his movements?

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