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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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I agree there's something fishy going on here but if it's magic, why do you think it's benign? Jon may well be able to fight off several dagger-armed stewards with Longclaw, so if Mel would tried to help him, why would she hinder his movements?

No clue, personally I don't think it's Melisandre's magic, but it could be some kind of healing spell that has reduced agility as a side effect? Just a wild guess. It could also be magic from someone else, or poison, or, or... So many things. But it's definitely fishy :)

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Jon dreams of the direwolves, and realizes that one of the female wolves is dead. Then he hears a voice behind him, a silent shout or whisper, and he looks around, searching for a lean grey shape. He sees a sapling weirwood rapidly growing from the cliff side, and it has Bran's face, except it has three eyes. He wonders if his brother always had three eyes, and the weirwood tells him that it wasn't the case until the crow. John smells wolf, tree and boy, and warm earth, hard stone and death. Bran tells him that he likes it in the dark, and then the weirwood touches Jon to open his eye. Suddenly Jon slips into Ghost and sees things from his perspective.

Did we ever see this come about. This sounds exactly like where Bran is at now and Jon does say he smells death. I still think that right as Jon was dying Bran basically pushes him into Ghost.

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First of all I think that the "smoking" issue that has been a lot of talk about it is self-explanatory

"In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

Night, Cold Air, Blood pouring out. How much better can an author write the heat of the scene.

If Jon is alive or dead, nobody can tell. The sure thing is he is mortally wounded and whether he will be saved or not we will have to wait and see.

Secondly, I haven't read in any of these post what the aftermath of this assassination attempt (successful or not) to the Lord Commander will be. Don't forget that Castle Black is full of Free Folk and that Jon was their guarantee that they will be save behind the Wall. Also as it was mentioned when Jon and Tormund Giantsbane got into the Shieldhall the Night Watch people were outnumbered five to one. If Jon is dead the slaughter in Castle Black is certain.

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My pet theory is that the Mel realized Jon is AA and plots with the other NW to make Jon realize this. When Jon decides to go south, the NW realize they won't have the opportunity to do this and decide to stab Jon to keep him on the Wall for a resurrection.

My only clue is when the attackers seem sorry for what they have done. Wick puts his hands up to say it wasn't him and Bowen Marsh had "tears running down his cheeks." Maybe they realized this is what they need to do? Yes, it's at grave peril to their own lives, but they stabbed Jon for the Watch.

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Someone asked what Wun Wun was doing killing Ser Patrek-- it seems clear to me that Patrek had found some reason to slay the giant and Wun Wun was defending himself.

Yeah, but conspired he together w/ Bowen and the others (just he didn't think he was going to die)? Bowen and the other NW-men, I can't believe they made it all up on the go. Maybe sth else was going on, Patrek clashed w/ Jon more than once before, even when they first met each other.

Queen Selyse sniffed again. “Four marriages can be made as simply as three. It is past time that this woman Val was settled' date=' Lord Snow. I have decided that she shall wed my good and leal knight, Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain.”

“Has Val been told, Your Grace?” asked Jon. “Amongst the free folk, when a man desires a woman, he steals her, and thus proves his strength, his cunning, and his courage.[/quote']

I'm pretty positive Val asked him to prove his worth when he approached her. Wether it was his own idea to slay the Giant, or wether she asked it of him - knowing he'd fail - I can't say though.

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First of all I think that the "smoking" issue that has been a lot of talk about it is self-explanatory

"In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

Night, Cold Air, Blood pouring out. How much better can an author write the heat of the scene.

If Jon is alive or dead, nobody can tell. The sure thing is he is mortally wounded and whether he will be saved or not we will have to wait and see.

<snip>

There's too many other signs for it to simply be the heat from the body/wound being the smoke. Heat from the body mists and steams, not smokes. Smoke is significantly different than steam.

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It's totally plausible that these 4 or so stabs are the only ones, and as people said before, the stabbers are mostly stewards who are not necessarily the most skillful knife wielders.

I would never underestimate a cook or a butcher's skill with a knife.

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We know Jon isn't dead dead. He'll inhabit Ghost at the very least.

If GRRM opens TWOW with the death of Ghost...

Ashara Dayne had purple eyes (a sign of Targaryen blood). Jon may have been Ashara's son.

Jon has dragon's blood?

No, Jon is Lyanna's son. Ned admits Jon's “his blood”.

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I harbored the belief that Jon could be killed, but the death still came as a shock to me. I guess I never really thought he'd do it.

Whether or not he's actually dead--and if he is, whether or not he'll stay dead--is another matter entirely. What stung the most was that it was totally justified! Jon was sending the Wildlings to their deaths, and about to march south to Winterfell rather than hand over the bitch of a queen and her daughter. Doing the "right thing" is what got Ned the world's worst haircut, and it's what got Jon done in, as well. Even after all this learning and self-discovery, Jon still doesn't get that right and wrong are relative terms, and that one innocent life isn't worth saving when it could cost you the entire realm.

But these moral arguments are part of what makes the series so compelling. We have self-serving characters winning at every turn, and the "heroes" of the story getting themselves done in Et Tu, Brute style because they're too stubborn and shortsighted. I think this will eventually right itself...but maybe not. GRRM isn't known for shiny, happy endings.

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Jon can't be dead because his build up doesn't allow it, what about his parentage and all? I say 998th commander of the NW: Jon; 999th: Bowen? Thorne? Tormund?; 1000th and last: Jon as AA! after some warging period.

"He never felt the fourth knife" - how would he know about it otherwise?

I agree with those that say Jon has to be temporarily knocked out for the wall to fall in the aftermath. Men fighting each other instead of Others big scale. We can't have that during his command.

Stannis - The banker surely told him about the Karstark conspiracy.

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I would never underestimate a cook or a butcher's skill with a knife.

True enough, but since the first knife was knocked out of the attackers hand and the second knife was left in his stomach, there is only the knife (that I can remember off hand)that hits him in the back left for further wounding. It would also be very easy to have Wun Wun intervene by then. And since Jon had made a point to learn the language and talk to Wun Wun, I expect there to be no more wounds.

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Do we know how grave the wounds are? Is it possible that some of the people doing the stabbing were under orders from Bowen Marsh but felt conflicted about it, so they might have stabbed with less force?

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Do we know how grave the wounds are? Is it possible that some of the people doing the stabbing were under orders from Bowen Marsh but felt conflicted about it, so they might have stabbed with less force?

The throat, guts, back up between the shoulders. They have their bases covered, all 3 wounds missing something vital would be unlikely. I don't belive it takes that much force, I vaguely remeber being told that 2in penetration an things get dicey.

Maybe the smoke is Mel cauterising the wounds as they happen.

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