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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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I did not read though the whole thread, but did anyone mention what Melisandre saw in her fires? Where she saw daggers all around him and skulls and she said she saw as a man then a wolf then a man again? also the colors around him were red and orange.

I wonder if Mel saw not only his death but also him coming back from death, "A man then a wolf, then a man again"?

She said she prayed for a glimpse of AA and all she saw was Snow.

The prevailing theory is that he is gonna warg into Ghost, and then be revived back into a human body again by Mel. Hence why we get all that stuff about warging to escape death in the prologue, and why Mel is left behind at the Wall. And, the prevailing theory is also that Jon, not Stannis, as in actuality AA.

My only complaint in this theory isn't that I find anything wrong with it, it's that considering the pacing of the story, it's very possible Jon spends a good part of the next book in Ghost, meaning it could be years and years and years and years before I get to see him back as human Jon again. :P Worst case scenario, he spends all of the next book as Ghost, and doesn't get revived until the end. At say...five years for the next book, then another five years till the book after, that could potentially mean I won't get to read about human Jon for another decade! And it was already almost a decade since we last read from human Jon's pov. Nooooooo! :/

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My question is where is Ghost? Cause most theories have Jon warging into him, but what if Ghost acts like Grey Wind and starts killing people.

It's a different situation.

Robb was in the midst of all his men being slaughtered. Jon was simply assassinated. And I'm not convinced Robb was even a warg.

If Jon did warg in Ghost, he's in his room. The Wildings know Jon is a warg and at least pig guy knows that changers can shift into their animals when they die. If Jon does shift into Ghost, I'm guessing the Wildings figure it out.

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The prevailing theory is that he is gonna warg into Ghost, and then be revived back into a human body again by Mel. Hence why we get all that stuff about warging to escape death in the prologue, and why Mel is left behind at the Wall. And, the prevailing theory is also that Jon, not Stannis, as in actuality AA.

My only complaint in this theory isn't that I find anything wrong with it, it's that considering the pacing of the story, it's very possible Jon spends a good part of the next book in Ghost, meaning it could be years and years and years and years before I get to see him back as human Jon again. :P Worst case scenario, he spends all of the next book as Ghost, and doesn't get revived until the end. At say...five years for the next book, then another five years till the book after, that could potentially mean I won't get to read about human Jon for another decade! And it was already almost a decade since we last read from human Jon's pov. Nooooooo! :/

I hope you are so wrong on the second part, but yeah it may be why GRRM had the prologue about Varamyr. It was to set a precedence and an understanding on how its done. Even though we saw this with Orell after Jon killed him he was left in his eagle. A more in depth look into Wargs and their ability's was a pretty good way to open the book.

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I think the news (false or not) of Stannis's death, when it reaches Mel, is going to make her start up her Sekrit Azor Ahai Reviving Ritual and she'll raise Jon by accident, and that it's not in the book because it would be too big a clue that Jon is going to wake back up. But that's just one theory.

Is there a secret Azor Ahai reviving ritual, though? I'm not so sure. At any rate, I think Mel may have begun to suspect that Stannis may not be Azor Ahai and that is why she chose to stay back at the wall, even if at the point of her POV she was still resisting the notion.

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Snippet from an interview GRRM did recently. http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

EW: Well, I guess. Yes. That’s how I took it. The way it was written, it sounded like he was mortally wounded — and, you know, it’s you!

GRRM: Well. I’m not going to address whether he’s dead or not. But as to why — didn’t you think the text established why they would want to assassinate him?

EW: The narrative made perfect sense. Looking back through the books, all the decisions Jon’s made, and all the foreshadowing that was there, yes, you played fair. At the same time, it was devastating and I suspect fans will howl... It’s a harsh chapter in terms of fan expectations. You go from this total high of Jon giving this rousing speech about going after the evil Ramsay Bolton, to this utter low of his men turning against him. So fans are not supposed to draw that conclusion he’s dead?

GRRM: What I’m seeing from early reactions, admittedly just a handful, I think fans are going to split and argue about it until the next book comes out.

So he doesn't give us a concrete answer, of course. But that itself is telling. If he was dead, why not just say so? So you can reveal in the first chapter of the next book that is is in fact dead? Not buying it. Azor Snow's back in Winds of Winter.

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First post here, but I have been a fan of the series from the very beginning. Hi, all.

Upon reading the last few paragraphs of Jon's last chapter it brings up a few things:

1. After he is grazed across the neck, there is the comment that men are screaming. This could be at the giant, Wun Wun, or it could be because allies are fighting to get to Jon.

2. It says that his wounds are "smoking". I have read most of the comments on here and it seems that some think that this is significant and some think that it is because of the cold. When I first read it, the first thing that came to my mind was poison. If the blades were poisened then Jon could be well and truly screwed. However, we do know that Mel knows a thing or two about poison from AKoK and Master Cressen. She has been warning Jon for most of the book about knives in the dark. Could she have uncovered the plot against Jon and magicked the blades? Maybe coated them from something that would help to prevent Jon from dying? Could this be why his wounds are smoking? Might be that there is something that dulls the senses, or kills the pain and that is why he has a hard time drawing Longclaw.

3. Most everybody seems to think that Jon was stabbed four times. I don't get that. The first blow only nicked him. Bowen Marsh drove a blade into his belly, that is 1. He felt another between his shoulder blades, that is 2. The text then reads that "he never felt the fourth blow." Could that be because it never came? You have to think that by this time some aid has gotten to Jon. He had time to disarm one opponent and then get stabbed twice. Surely that is enough time for his guards to come to his aid. Two followed him out, can't remember who. Of course, they may have also been a part of the plot.

Anyway, just my two cents. Jon is my favorite character so, of course, I am hoping that he doesn't die. I don't want to see him reborn or UnJon, either. I am a believer in the R+L=J theory as well, and I think that Martin deliberately put the part in about his wounds smoking, especially since we had just seen Drogon's wounds prior to Jon's chapter, to get people going down the "blood of the dragon" path. I don't think that is what it is all about though.

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it`s striking the the wounds are smoking. in the context of the forshadowing of Mel even more:

"Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel."

so and now some rather odd stuff...

winterfell is already a ruin. waking an ice dragon can`t ruin much more, so it would have a logistical point. there`s definitly something under there, wether a tunnel or a dragon.

and now the real crackpoint:

mel or the others will burn jon and so he wakes up/rewakes whatever again. hey, his is the song of ice and fire.

this caesar dead is at least not really fitting for him.

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So two serious wounds, one in the gut and one between the shoulder blades. Mel comes in and heals him with fire like Victarian. Jon can then blow the horn to control dragons since his insides are already burning anyway.

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The throat, guts, back up between the shoulders. They have their bases covered, all 3 wounds missing something vital would be unlikely. I don't belive it takes that much force, I vaguely remeber being told that 2in penetration an things get dicey.

Maybe the smoke is Mel cauterising the wounds as they happen.

Now that is intriguing.....

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I'm not even sure we can absolutely say that he was stabbed in the belly. I don't think anyone else has mentioned this as far as I've been reading, but the phrasing is just to close to the red wedding Arya chapter, where the hound's axe "took her in the head" or whatever the exact words were. It's something that is easily interpreted to mean death but not explicitly spelled out.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched John in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

1. He was definitely punched in the belly. That could be where the pain came from.

2. This is the big one. The dagger stayed where it was buried. It was buried somewhere, but that somewhere does not have to be in Jon's flesh at all. It could have been stuck in Jon's mail, or in some boiled leather or whatever. (I don't know if he usually goes around mailed or not really)

3. There is no mention of blood, only smoking. Which is a strange enough way to describe steaming blood that that seems to imply something's up in and of itself.

4. He could still feel, even if it was cold The dead don't usually feel.

Major point against all this - he does call it a wound, It would be kind of weird to call a rip in your clothes a wound

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it`s striking the the wounds are smoking. in the context of the forshadowing of Mel even more:

"Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel."

so and now some rather odd stuff...

winterfell is already a ruin. waking an ice dragon can`t ruin much more, so it would have a logistical point. there`s definitly something under there, wether a tunnel or a dragon.

and now the real crackpoint:

mel or the others will burn jon and so he wakes up/rewakes whatever again. hey, his is the song of ice and fire.

this caesar dead is at least not really fitting for him.

This is an interesting idea, that Winterfell has a sleeping ice dragon under it. Jon does keep talking about the bellies of ice dragons. But what would a fourth dragon accomplish for the plot? If the dragon is under Winterfell, it probably inhabits the deepest reaches of the Stark crypts, where everyone is afraid to go.

My problem with Jon being AA is that he lacks Lightbringer, and Mormont's bastard sword won't suddenly turn into it, Valerian steel or no. Which brings up Dany. Maybe DANY is Lightbringer, since she brings the dragons with her.

Also, AA is born in salt and smoke, not reborn. If Jon is AA, then Lyanna may have given birth to him at King's Landing or the site of some other battle by the sea. Ned brought Jon home with him from Robert's War. I think people are making too much of his smoking wounds and Marsh's tears.

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So he doesn't give us a concrete answer, of course. But that itself is telling. If he was dead, why not just say so?

Why did you know the release date for ADWD, and why did you buy it almost immediately? Because (I'm guessing) you were involved in the community that surrounds these books. What's the central element of this community? Debating, and theorizing. By creating ambiguity regarding Jon's fate, he's increasing the chance that when tWoW rolls around, we'll still be here.

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My problem with Jon being AA is that he lacks Lightbringer, and Mormont's bastard sword won't suddenly turn into it, Valerian steel or no. Which brings up Dany. Maybe DANY is Lightbringer, since she brings the dragons with her.

Also, AA is born in salt and smoke, not reborn. If Jon is AA, then Lyanna may have given birth to him at King's Landing or the site of some other battle by the sea. Ned brought Jon home with him from Robert's War. I think people are making too much of his smoking wounds and Marsh's tears.

Maybe I misunderstand, but these two points seem hypocritical. On one hand you say Jon lacks lightbringer, but that Dany/her dragons could be lightbringer, which is taking a very figurative interpretation to the legend. On the other hand you take a very literal approach with your assertion that "birth" cannot mean "rebirth"(which seems to be a fallacy in my mind, rebirth is still birth) and that the salt and smoke cannot be the steam and tears. Why can lightbringer be seen in a figurative light while other aspects cannot?

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I'm sure he's only mostly dead. All we need is Miracle Max Melisandre... or maybe not even her, Azor Ahai is on his way.

Odd, I thought those daggers would be attacking when Ser Prickhead Thorne returned. It's a beautifully sad scene. But it would be sadder is closer friends would be stabbing him, but they're either dead or away.

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it`s striking the the wounds are smoking. in the context of the forshadowing of Mel even more:

"Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel."

so and now some rather odd stuff...

winterfell is already a ruin. waking an ice dragon can`t ruin much more, so it would have a logistical point. there`s definitly something under there, wether a tunnel or a dragon.

and now the real crackpoint:

mel or the others will burn jon and so he wakes up/rewakes whatever again. hey, his is the song of ice and fire.

this caesar dead is at least not really fitting for him.

If there was a dragon under Winterfell it was probably not an ice dragon. Assuming an ice dragon is consistent with his short/children's book The Ice Dragon set in the same world, then they do not breath fire and Bran/Summer saw a serpent spewing forth fire when Winterfell was sacked. Also, ice dragons would need more cold than you find under Winterfell (which has hot springs under it).

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I'm sure he's only mostly dead. All we need is Miracle Max Melisandre... or maybe not even her, Azor Ahai is on his way.

I would hope that Mel gets the message R'hllor has been sending her when she asks to see Azor Ahai and all she sees in Jon's face floating through the flames before they decide to burn Jon's body.

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I still have this very strong suspicion that the business of a hidden dragon whether under/in the Wall or at Winterfell is being taken too literally, and that the dragon in question is actually Jon (Targarayen)himself - and yes he is also the Song of Ice and Fire.

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