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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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1. He was definitely punched in the belly. That could be where the pain came from.

2. This is the big one. The dagger stayed where it was buried.

Major point against all this - he does call it a wound, It would be kind of weird to call a rip in your clothes a wound

No- Remember, this is POV. So from Jon's perspective, he THOUGHT that he had been punched in the belly, because that's what it looked like to him, but then when the hand pulled away, the dagger was left there, and he realized that he had, in fact, been stabbed.

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No- Remember, this is POV. So from Jon's perspective, he THOUGHT that he had been punched in the belly, because that's what it looked like to him, but then when the hand pulled away, the dagger was left there, and he realized that he had, in fact, been stabbed.

Right. A lot of people here seem to be misinterpreting Martin's poetic descriptions of Jon's wounds as literal.

Jon is in shock from the wounds and the unexpected violence. Martin represents this by describing the scene in an odd, poetic and distant way. So his wounds are not "smoking" because Melisandre is magicking them (if she were there and could react that quickly, she'd probably be using her magic to stop the violence in some other way) - his warm blood is steaming in the cold. Likewise, he feels that he is punched in the stomach, because the human body is not all that good at precisely registering serious wounds. Jon has been punched in the stomach before, but never stabbed, so his brain is trying to make sense of the pain, but inaccurately settling on the most similar previous sensation. I believe that sometimes people who have been shot think they have only been hit. This is the same sort of thing.

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Right. A lot of people here seem to be misinterpreting Martin's poetic descriptions of Jon's wounds as literal.

Jon is in shock from the wounds and the unexpected violence. Martin represents this by describing the scene in an odd, poetic and distant way. So his wounds are not "smoking" because Melisandre is magicking them (if she were there and could react that quickly, she'd probably be using her magic to stop the violence in some other way) - his warm blood is steaming in the cold. Likewise, he feels that he is punched in the stomach, because the human body is not all that good at precisely registering serious wounds. Jon has been punched in the stomach before, but never stabbed, so his brain is trying to make sense of the pain, but inaccurately settling on the most similar previous sensation. I believe that sometimes people who have been shot think they have only been hit. This is the same sort of thing.

Indeed, in physical terms its actually quite simple in that there are far fewer nerve endings on the skin of the body which makes it difficult to pinpoint precisely where an injury has occurred. So far as big wounds go, especially gunshots, you also have to figure in the hydrostatic shock. Very simply, as the human body is mainly water a major penetrating wound will cause ripples, and in the case of gunshots secondary tissue damage as the displaced water ruptures the cells its sitting in. The point being that a wound to the body will result in immediate pain diffused over a comparatively large area - just like a blow from a fist - rather than localised to the immediate (and comparatively small) penetration.

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Bran's prophecy from AGoT...

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Wight-Jon anyone?

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I think Jon's fate is that he will warg to Ghost as he dies, his corpse will be preserved by being frozen, the Whitewalkers will get to his corpse and reanimate it as a wight and then he'll claim it back by warging back into it.

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Jon will be fine. He's just waiting for the Tuesday coming. He will read GHOST STORY and see how Harry Dresden comes back from ghosthood, more powerful and free of an entangling oath. In the meantime Ghost and Mouse will team up to raid a Peter Pan factory which will result in a six state, four day orgy of mayhem, panting, drooling, shedding and squirrel chasing. Then it's back to saving the world in the shadows of reborn heroes. The Old Tom and Mister will likewise pair up to aggressively ignore everyone.

P.S. If Jon does come back as a wight he and Val will make history. For the first time when a man crawls into bed it will be the woman who has to deal with icy cold hands and feet unceremoniously pressed onto them.

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No- Remember, this is POV. So from Jon's perspective, he THOUGHT that he had been punched in the belly, because that's what it looked like to him, but then when the hand pulled away, the dagger was left there, and he realized that he had, in fact, been stabbed.

Right, but also given that it is POV the actual damage could be less than he eventually decides to interpret it as. Ever thought you broke a bone but it turned out to be just a sprain? The dagger was left there, but he never says exactly where the dagger was buried in unambiguous terms. I'm not saying he's not dead, just that the information we have is insuficient to say that he *must* be dead.

Right. A lot of people here seem to be misinterpreting Martin's poetic descriptions of Jon's wounds as literal.

This sword cuts both ways - there is a possibility for misinterpretation of poetic as literal, as well as a possibility for misinterpretation of literal as poetic. Martin has a history of encouraging readers to do both sorts of misinterpretation.

This case just reminds me way too much of Arya's axe to the head from Sandor; what read like a poetic way to describe death by axe was actually a more literal description of being hit in the head with the flat of an axe. After all the other "death" scenes that were intentionally written ambiguously I'm just saying that I'm inclined to withhold judgement on his actual state until the next book.

Both interpretations are possible, and until we get confirmation, neither is a "misinterpretation." Jon definitely could be severely injured or dead, but the wording leaves open the possibility that he's only been slightly injured. A lot of people seem upset that the "only" possibilities are that he's perma-dead or that he'll have to be brought back as unJon. I'm just trying to say that there are other options that don't even have to rely on fantastical plot devices like glamours and such.

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I think cold-hands foreshadows Jon's future wight state, while Varamyr foreshadows his jumping into Ghost when he dies.

"Skin growing pale and hard as all warmth fades from him" == sounds an awful lot like a wight. Regular people go pale from lack of sun, but regular people's skin doesn't "go hard". "All warmth" == completely cold, like Cold-hands. Even if someone is very cold, they still have warmth, unless they are dead.

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The wording leaves open the possibility that he's only been slightly injured. A lot of people seem upset that the "only possibilities are that he's perma-dead or that he'll have to be brought back as unJon. I'm just trying to say that there are other options that don't even have to rely on fantastical plot devices like glamours and such.

But what would GRRM accomplish from a meta standpoint by having Jon be only slightly injured? If he's OK, he'll resume his duties, execute the conspirators, and carry on as before, with a bit more ruthlessness and distrust of his subordinates. It wouldn't move the plot forward.

The possibilities are a lot more dramatic if he's badly wounded or needs resurrection. If that happens, then he'll likely ditch the Night's Watch and join the wildlings, or else he might become Azor Ahai Reborn or a dragon rider or a fire-wight or Coldhand 2.0 or who knows what.

Also, Jon has had by far the smoothest sailing of any of the main characters, so it just makes sense for something terrible to happen to him at this point.

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Right, but also given that it is POV the actual damage could be less than he eventually decides to interpret it as. Ever thought you broke a bone but it turned out to be just a sprain? The dagger was left there, but he never says exactly where the dagger was buried in unambiguous terms. I'm not saying he's not dead, just that the information we have is insuficient to say that he *must* be dead.

This sword cuts both ways - there is a possibility for misinterpretation of poetic as literal, as well as a possibility for misinterpretation of literal as poetic. Martin has a history of encouraging readers to do both sorts of misinterpretation.

This case just reminds me way too much of Arya's axe to the head from Sandor; what read like a poetic way to describe death by axe was actually a more literal description of being hit in the head with the flat of an axe. After all the other "death" scenes that were intentionally written ambiguously I'm just saying that I'm inclined to withhold judgement on his actual state until the next book.

Both interpretations are possible, and until we get confirmation, neither is a "misinterpretation." Jon definitely could be severely injured or dead, but the wording leaves open the possibility that he's only been slightly injured. A lot of people seem upset that the "only" possibilities are that he's perma-dead or that he'll have to be brought back as unJon. I'm just trying to say that there are other options that don't even have to rely on fantastical plot devices like glamours and such.

agreed

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"Skin growing pale and hard as all warmth fades from him" == sounds an awful lot like a wight. Regular people go pale from lack of sun, but regular people's skin doesn't "go hard". "All warmth" == completely cold, like Cold-hands. Even if someone is very cold, they still have warmth, unless they are dead.

You're ignoring the intensely cold environment that he's in. Warmth would leave and stiffness would come relatively quickly. Wight or not.

As people have said, him dying does not mean he becomes a wight. (in the literal sense)

I don't know why you then choose to ignore the last bit about his tears burning, I don't think of wights as being capable of shedding tears.

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Loras was absolutly deadly wounded. and..... is still alive.

with much more wildlings surrounding him than nw, not likely that more daggers can hit him.

is no one except of me annoyed by this caesar parallel?

to the dragon point....

first argument: for being AA it`s necessary to wake dragons from stone, or? i`m not convinced that the AA and tPwwP are the same, but anyway.

as someone pointed out smartly winterfell is built on hot springs. it seems a perfect place for a dragon, as i suppose there`s no time left for bringing them up like dany. but i agree could be complete nonsense, too as this ice dragon thing.

second argument: well for bringing down an army of whights a dragon seems pretty necessary. a "dance with dragons" referring to a former targ brother and sister having war with each other and the hostility between targs and starks points out a bit, that dany is not likely to give him one. why not having an own one? who says there can`t be more? the wall is a pretty powerful magical place, he is able to warg, with bloodraven and his sigil (white dragon with red eyes) near... these aren`t bad pre conditions for getting an own dragon.

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Disagree with this [that Jon has had smooth sailing]. I don't know where this notion comes from. Maybe we have a sympathetic character who was just smart?

I think Jon has had a lot of plot protection and hasn't gone through the degree of trauma that the other POVs have experienced. He hasn't lost a limb, been crippled, been hideous from birth, been forced to marry someone against his will, lost a child, been tortured or been homeless for years (I'm referring to Arya here, and I don't count Jon's stint with the wildlings as being homeless because he was with a cohesive community). The one traumatic event that he has endured was being forced to kill Qhorin Halfhand, but his wolf took care of that one for him.

More to the point, none of the characters in this story achieve greatness except by dint of horrible suffering. If Jon is to become Azor Ahai Reborn or whatever, he needs to go through something horrific.

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I think Jon has had a lot of plot protection and hasn't gone through the degree of trauma that the other POVs have experienced. He hasn't lost a limb, been crippled, been hideous from birth, been forced to marry someone against his will, lost a child, been tortured or been homeless for years (I'm referring to Arya here, and I don't count Jon's stint with the wildlings as being homeless because he was with a cohesive community). The one traumatic event that he has endured was being forced to kill Qhorin Halfhand, but his wolf took care of that one for him.

More to the point, none of the characters in this story achieve greatness except by dint of horrible suffering. If Jon is to become Azor Ahai Reborn or whatever, he needs to go through something horrific.

He just got stabbed to death (likely) by four people he never suspected. I'd say that was pretty horrific. If/When he comes back, I'm sure the betrayal and death will have had an effect on his character just as severe as if he had lost a hand or a nose or whatnot.

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