Jump to content

[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

Recommended Posts

Loras was absolutly deadly wounded. and..... is still alive.

with much more wildlings surrounding him than nw, not likely that more daggers can hit him.

is no one except of me annoyed by this caesar parallel?

to the dragon point....

first argument: for being AA it`s necessary to wake dragons from stone, or? i`m not convinced that the AA and tPwwP are the same, but anyway.

as someone pointed out smartly winterfell is built on hot springs. it seems a perfect place for a dragon, as i suppose there`s no time left for bringing them up like dany. but i agree could be complete nonsense, too as this ice dragon thing.

second argument: well for bringing down an army of whights a dragon seems pretty necessary. a "dance with dragons" referring to a former targ brother and sister having war with each other and the hostility between targs and starks points out a bit, that dany is not likely to give him one. why not having an own one? who says there can`t be more? the wall is a pretty powerful magical place, he is able to warg, with bloodraven and his sigil (white dragon with red eyes) near... these aren`t bad pre conditions for getting an own dragon.

And there is Moqorro's vision that describes dragons old and new. If this is literally about dragons then it implies that there are more dragons than Dany's since all of hers are new. Which makes under Winterfell a solid option. However, if he is describing Targs as dragons there would need to be another older man Targ running around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No just a poetic way of describing death.

He sees him on ice "as all warmth leaves him" which sounds like he is seeing him in the act of dying. It does not say he sees him with all warmth gone. There is still plenty of wiggle room there for healing without a total death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He just got stabbed to death (likely) by four people he never suspected. I'd say that was pretty horrific. If/When he comes back, I'm sure the betrayal and death will have had an effect on his character just as severe as if he had lost a hand or a nose or whatnot.

Well yeah, that's my point. The whole reason I brought up the "Jon has plot protection" thing was that someone was hoping that the wounds were insignificant. Whereas I think at this point in the story it's time for something terrible to happen to Jon. The final NW scene has maximum impact if indeed he was stabbed to death and has to be resurrected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Jon has had a lot of plot protection and hasn't gone through the degree of trauma that the other POVs have experienced. He hasn't lost a limb, been crippled, been hideous from birth, been forced to marry someone against his will, lost a child, been tortured or been homeless for years (I'm referring to Arya here, and I don't count Jon's stint with the wildlings as being homeless because he was with a cohesive community). The one traumatic event that he has endured was being forced to kill Qhorin Halfhand, but his wolf took care of that one for him.

More to the point, none of the characters in this story achieve greatness except by dint of horrible suffering. If Jon is to become Azor Ahai Reborn or whatever, he needs to go through something horrific.

He's murdered or nearly murdered by people he led, befriended and trusted, isn't that horrible enough?

Let's recap Jon's life:

He never knew his mother, or know of her.

He grew up a bastard, stigmatized, in a home he loved but where he was always made to feel like an obnoxious intruder by the nearest thing to a mother he has ever known (Catelyn)

The man he called father treats him with a kindness but little warmth.

At 15 he is such an outsider that he effectively exiles himself to a life at the Wall for a life with no hope of warmth, love or progeny. At 15!!

In his exile he is forced to endure the death of a father, 3 brothers, a sister, a step-mother and the destruction of his home, while he stands on a Wall helpless, torn, guilt ridden and alone.

And then, as he was just beginning to feel accepted by his NW brothers, he is forced to turn his cloak, kill his commander, forever to be regarded by his brothers with suspicion.

His first love, he is forced to betray and then watch die, for the good of the Wall, the realm and his brothers.

And then finally, those same brothers murder him.

I grant that Jon's trials have not been those of physical torment, but he has certainly suffered emotional pain all his life, and his final year has been nothing less than emotionally torturous, imo.

I think the boy has suffered plenty, but what makes him special, is that through it all he managed to retain his reason and his honor. That makes Jon special, I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well yeah, that's my point. The whole reason I brought up the "Jon has plot protection" thing was that someone was hoping that the wounds were insignificant. Whereas I think at this point in the story it's time for something terrible to happen to Jon. The final NW scene has maximum impact if indeed he was stabbed to death and has to be resurrected.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry about that. :blushing:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And there is Moqorro's vision that describes dragons old and new. If this is literally about dragons then it implies that there are more dragons than Dany's since all of hers are new. Which makes under Winterfell a solid option. However, if he is describing Targs as dragons there would need to be another older man Targ running around.

well, bloodraven is a targ, if not running around.

and i found in another dread that he had a dragon egg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Mel's chapter she sees Jon as 'a man, a wolf, and then a man again' or something like that. I think this implies Jon did a warg thing into Ghost and will somehow get into either his own of another body later.

Yes, I believe Jon will be resurrected into the body of Stannis (in "the letter", it's implied Ramsay does not have Stannis' corpse)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, have read many but not all of the replies here so hope I am not repeating what others have said.

I liked DwD a lot better than Feast for Crows but I think both of them have the same purpose, putting people in the right place for the big action, Dany invading with dragons and the great war against the wights. Getting Jon free of being captain of the good ship Big Honking Wall so he can have other adventures I definitely think could be one of the main aims of this book. My guess is that he will be a Ghost warg for a while (LOVE Brienne's notice of the double meaning of Ghost), otherwise why the Prologue about Varamyr as Volderon pointed out). Also like someone's idea that Wun Wun is involved. Another possibility is John wargs into Mormont's crow. Varamyr jumped in and out of a lot of creatures before his death. I like the analogies that people have been drawing with Dany's resurrection(s). We need a come back from the cold just as Dany had from the flame.

I thought the framing was very interesting. The note supposedly from Ramsey Bolton set off the sequence of events which led to Jon's breaking of his vows, thus justifying Bowen et al's actions. In the next book, Bowen will either be made Lord Commander of the Wall for his heroic actions (in which case he will die pretty damn quick in a big assault from the Others) or will be put to death. I thought it interesting that the note contained information that only Melisandre and Jon knew about Mance and his washerwomen, but not information that Bolton would have had, that Jeyne was with Theon and Stannis. This could easily make it a plot by Melisandre and perhaps Queen Celyse to get rid of Jon.

The larger frame is the letting the wildings onto the wall and sending whatshisname (no book with me, sorry!) to get people from Hardholme. I can easily see Ghost following them up there and fighting zombies along the way. One of the clues to this is all the references to wilding connected to Jon. This could be foreshadowing Jon's life north of the wall.

One of my favorite scenes in the series is from Book 3, where Sansa and little Robert Arryn are playing with the snow fort that represents Winterfell and giants come along. Wun Wun for the win anyone? Maybe even a Jon/Wun Wun warg?

Of course maybe Kevan Lannister will come back and be AA (not!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ps: speculations from Brienne's idea of the direwolves' names having meaning

Ghost = Jon resurrection

Summer = Bran brings about the end of Winter

Shaggy Dog = Rickon becomes wild feral creature

Grey Wind = Robb's death

Lady = Way too innocent to live/death of the romantic in Sansa

Nymeria = Queen/Arya is not only only going to get to kill lots of people but will also rule in one way or another as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's recap Jon's life:

He never knew his mother, or know of her.

He grew up a bastard, stigmatized, in a home he loved but where he was always made to feel like an obnoxious intruder by the nearest thing to a mother he has ever known (Catelyn)

The man he called father treats him with a kindness but little warmth.

At 15 he is such an outsider that he effectively exiles himself to a life at the Wall for a life with no hope of warmth, love or progeny. At 15!!

In his exile he is forced to endure the death of a father, 3 brothers, a sister, a step-mother and the destruction of his home, while he stands on a Wall helpless, torn, guilt ridden and alone.

And then, as he was just beginning to feel accepted by his NW brothers, he is forced to turn his cloak, kill his commander, forever to be regarded by his brothers with suspicion.

His first love, he is forced to betray and then watch die, for the good of the Wall, the realm and his brothers.

And then finally, those same brothers murder him.

Apart from the last one, and the death of his family, all this amounts to a ton of angst, but no more. It's all about his attitude to a fairly good life as things go in Westeros.

He grew up warm, well-fed, well-dressed, well-cared for and loved. Any number of hungry peasants would gladly exchange places there.

Cat didn't love him, but everyone else in Winterfell did. Ned was warm enough to him, given Ned's nature, and a slight coolness is nothing compared to, for instance, Sam's constant abuse at the hands of his father. Plenty of characters, such as Tyrion and Dany, never knew their mother.

He didn't have to go to the wall - he chose it. He could have taken up service with another house, who would have been happy to have a well-trained talented young swordsman.

Bastardy is a strong social taint in Westeros, but a capable illegitimate person of noble origins can achieve anything if they put their minds to it - see Ser Brynden Rivers, hand to the king, lord commander of the Night's watch, and sorcerer of renown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And other random thoughts: Young Griff has Star Trek red shirt written all over him and Jon Connington will be Lord Commander of the Wall #1000. Tyrion's busy, nobody else has the stature expected in a Lord Commander (one of the justifications of Jon being made LC is that there was no one else).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

to the dragon point....

first argument: for being AA it`s necessary to wake dragons from stone, or? i`m not convinced that the AA and tPwwP are the same, but anyway.

The two are different sides of the same coin, at least that it was Martin himself has said, I believe in one of the SSM. I think we can take those as scripture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First time poster and here I go about to weave a wild conspiracy theory:

The royal blood that Mel needed to wake the dragons is within Jon's veins, it has now been spilled. In more ways than one. Her attempt to sacrifice Mance shows that to be 'kingly' was not necessarily to be ordained with some sort of crown, but to have the disposition and attitude of a king. It is clear that Stannis lacks this, however Jon's rousing speech does make him out to be quite 'kingly'. The letter written by 'Ramsay' may in fact have been a test by Mel to determine if he would truly rise to the occasion and if he did, that would confirm just what he could be. It may have even been a deliberate attempt to have his blood spilled knowing that the Watch may assassinate Jon in the same breath as they had with the previous Lord Commander.

In this effort she may have been trying to wake a literal sleeping dragon, and have succeeded in a metaphorical sense.. by waking the dragon blood within Jon himself to become the reborn AA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's recap Jon's life:

He never knew his mother, or know of her.

He grew up a bastard, stigmatized, in a home he loved but where he was always made to feel like an obnoxious intruder by the nearest thing to a mother he has ever known (Catelyn)

The man he called father treats him with a kindness but little warmth.

At 15 he is such an outsider that he effectively exiles himself to a life at the Wall for a life with no hope of warmth, love or progeny. At 15!!

In his exile he is forced to endure the death of a father, 3 brothers, a sister, a step-mother and the destruction of his home, while he stands on a Wall helpless, torn, guilt ridden and alone.

And then, as he was just beginning to feel accepted by his NW brothers, he is forced to turn his cloak, kill his commander, forever to be regarded by his brothers with suspicion.

His first love, he is forced to betray and then watch die, for the good of the Wall, the realm and his brothers.

And then finally, those same brothers murder him.

Brienne the Beauty pretty much covered it. I'll just reiterate that being lonely, being illegitimate or having a cold stepparent aren't uncommon, today or in Westeros. Yes, he endures a lot of death in the family, but he wasn't very close to any of them and their death didn't result in any economic hardship for him (which is why I think Dany's loss of a baby and her husband is much more significant--her entire social worth was bound up in her ability to produce an heir, and her position in the khalasar was completely dependent on Drogo). As for exiling himself to the Wall, okay, that's a bummer, but how is it any worse than the position of the typical noblewoman who gets married off to someone she doesn't choose, or the typical peasant who gets conscripted into the random wars of his lord? Jon is luckier than about 90% of the population in that he gets to decide what he wants to do with his life.

Having to kill Qhorin Halfhand was rough, I agree, but he didn't--Ghost did. Losing Ygritte was rough too, but tons of guys lost their wives in childbirth before modern medicine.

I'm not saying Jon didn't have a hard time--he did--I'm just saying that he's had it easy relative to the other characters in the story, which is why it's time for him to get stabbed and almost killed. This will be the event that forges him into a hero.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ps: speculations from Brienne's idea of the direwolves' names having meaning

Ghost = Jon resurrection

Summer = Bran brings about the end of Winter

Shaggy Dog = Rickon becomes wild feral creature

Grey Wind = Robb's death

Lady = Way too innocent to live/death of the romantic in Sansa

Nymeria = Queen/Arya is not only only going to get to kill lots of people but will also rule in one way or another as well.

I saw that post, now I'm a believer.

If indeed Jon's body dies (stomach wounds usually take a while, though the one between the shoulder blades is more of a problem), I don't think an extended stay in Ghost/the Crow/or anything else is in the cards. We learn in Varamyr's chapter that the skinshanger starts to lose more and more of himself in such a situation. Maybe John is a stronger warg, and thus can preserve more of himself, but I think it is a concern.

Plus, Mel is there. If she has the resurrection/healing magic, I think she'll use it fast, if she has the chance. If Marsh takes over, then Jon's body will most likely be burned. And that is the end. However, if the NW, Mel, and Wildlings gain control of things, Mel can have access to the body and heal him/bring him back.

In any case, most of the scenario's that involve and extended stay in Ghost result in Jon's body being burned, per the custom at the Wall. If he comes back, it is going to have to be quick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The two are different sides of the same coin, at least that it was Martin himself has said, I believe in one of the SSM. I think we can take those as scripture.

what means SSM?

okay. reread and agree. thanks.

and maybe all those who stated that it`s not literally are right too.

but if it`s not it could be anything, like actually awaking bloodraven from the stone cave again. this guy must have a great knowledge of the others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The more I think about it, the more I stick in the theory that "waking dragon out of stone" is just Jon discovering his Targaryen blood. But I don't know if/want this to mean he will forget that he is, from the head to the toe, a Stark :uhoh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...